<p​reland:monero.social> That’s kinda the core problem that I found when looking into it: because of network synchronization, attempting to prevent orphaning behavior is challenging

<p​reland:monero.social> It bothers me deeply, because on paper it seems pretty obvious that if 49% of blocks posted get orphaned (in the worst case scenario of a 51% attack), that there is something wrong

<e​longated:matrix.org> When pos+pow combo

<p​reland:monero.social> Tbh I’ve always kinda ignored that as a possibility….but maybe townforge is on to something there

<p​reland:monero.social> I’ve also been thinking about Qubic’s “quorum” style consensus, and how that might be adjusted to fit Monero (sans the….odd and/or centralizing choices that were made)

<p​reland:monero.social> In terms of consensus it would be the equivalent of a transition from direct democracy to a representative democracy; carrying all of the advantages and disadvantages of that

<e​longated:matrix.org> Proof of Settlement?

<p​reland:monero.social> Tbh I’d want it to be something like that though

<p​reland:monero.social> Not staking or anything

<e​longated:matrix.org> It is staking

<p​reland:monero.social> Not direct* staking I should’ve said

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> for proof of stake: I cant imagine making whales who dont _do_ anything (like, feds or exchanges), mkre wealthy just bcuz they feel like hoarding xmr

<e​longated:matrix.org> Eth needs 32?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> yeah

<e​longated:matrix.org> That’s possible

<e​longated:matrix.org> Price is in reach

<p​reland:monero.social> It’s the hoarding behavior that I really do not want to incentivize

<e​longated:matrix.org> How is it hoarding?

<e​longated:matrix.org> It’s used to secure chain

<p​reland:monero.social> If a staking thing was added, I’d want it to be something irreversible and somewhat cumbersome to transfer between people to reduce the chances of coalescing power

<p​reland:monero.social> If it is more valuable to hold than to spend, that is very bad for an economy.

<p​reland:monero.social> No, people’s money shouldn’t be vanishing quicky, but their money shouldn’t be competing with investment

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> something like particl has over 50% of all coins staked and _nobody_ uses rhe coin anymore. Just inflation for the same of accumulating. Stakers, even if losing value, are gaining power over the network simply by parking coins and walking away

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> It becomes an pro-investor pyramid scam, and less of a utility focus. Those who want to use the coins obky end up funding those who dont pay any attention

<p​reland:monero.social> This is the behavior that I want to avoid

<e​longated:matrix.org> POS earning is negligible

<e​longated:matrix.org> What has current pow achieved? Ppl don’t price products in xmr they do it in Fiat

<e​longated:matrix.org> 90% buyer vendors stay in xmr for transaction only

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> And stakers would get paid to _not use xmr at all_

<e​longated:matrix.org> There is tons of xmr not in use

<e​longated:matrix.org> There is tons of xmr already not in use

<e​longated:matrix.org> That comes in to secure chain

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Yeah, but so they get paid to not uae it while raising their % of the supply by parking it and forgetting about it for 10years?

<e​longated:matrix.org> Also holding is a use case

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Yeah, but do they get paid to not uae it while raising their % of the supply by parking it and forgetting about it for 10years? (No)

<e​longated:matrix.org> A tiny amount of coins

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> no, its a conpounding %. Not tiny by any metric

<e​longated:matrix.org> The paid coins can be used

<p​reland:monero.social> Part of me wants it to be something like this:

<p​reland:monero.social> Person has Monero. They want to stake said Monero. In order to do that, they “burn” the Monero and in return they get some sort of on-chain “voucher” thingy that is tied directly to their address (cannot be transferred). They can stake more to get a larger voucher, *but they cannot unstake anything: no refunds, no transfers*.

<p​reland:monero.social> Ok maybe transfers are allowed, but it would need to have a sharp attrition cost, at least 10%, likely more. It should be infeasible for normal transactions, but would allow for transfers in the case of an emergency

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I think my suggestion to firo was something along the lines of: you should only be able to stake virgin coins. Not tx fees or coins you purchased. Only virgin coins that were produced by POW

<p​reland:monero.social> Ooh, that’s an interesting idea

<e​longated:matrix.org> Eth didn’t die after switching to pos

<e​longated:matrix.org> But we can take a middle path of pow+pos

<p​reland:monero.social> I disagree somewhat, but yeah having it split between the two would be significantly better than pure pos

<e​longated:matrix.org> So on Kubic can be keep doing pos

<e​longated:matrix.org> So only Kubic can be keep doing pos

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> on monero, this would mean that only solo/p2pool miners could stake

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Or mining pools themselves

<e​longated:matrix.org> So going back to same problem? Actual holders have no stake 🤣 monkeys can fight with botnets

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Botnets cant stake

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> They receive payouts from pools. Those arent virgin coins

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> It would add incentive to produce your own blocks, since you can only stake coinbases

<e​longated:matrix.org> Kubic is a pool, botnets get paid

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Pools get paid. Qubic is solomining

<e​longated:matrix.org> Kubic can keep virgin coins; pay in kubic or non virgin xmr

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> their whole model to sell xmr to cover their costs - but whether they stake or not, isnt the topic. If they stake, they would have to sell less, which takes sell pressure off of the value and incentivizes mining for other ppl

<e​longated:matrix.org> Who knows their real goal ? What if they are actually malicious

<e​longated:matrix.org> Someone else can replicate it, botnets are there for sale

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> point is, a miner, botnet or otherwise.l, would get paid more to move from a centralized pool to their own pool/p2pool/solo

<e​longated:matrix.org> Only if their goal was to stake and not immediately get paid out

<e​longated:matrix.org> Only if their goal was to stake and not immediately cash out

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> exactly my point

<e​longated:matrix.org> Kubic can keep coins, pay botnet in their tokens

<e​longated:matrix.org> Only Kubic will still be doing pos with your proposal

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> They have to pay the bills to pump their qubic and rent more hashpower. And if they stake and stop dumping? So be it.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> anyway, im anti pos on monero, but the only way i could partially agree would be if only pow virgin coins (ie solo/p2pool/pool operator) could take part in pos

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> could be farmed

<p​reland:monero.social> Personally I care less about where the coins come from, and more about where they *end*. And for PoS, it should end with the stake (imo)

<p​reland:monero.social> As an added “benefit”, it fixes the whole time locking issue/penalty thing that a lot of PoS chains have because, well, you *can’t* unlock

Rucknium are you on IRC? I don't know how to DM from IRC to matrix

<b​asses:matrix.org> sech1: I only got a dm from IRC once (oftc), and it was unencrypted iirc

hbs thank you for posting this github.com/hbs/MoneroMisc/blob/master/CARROT-discussion.md indeed your complete post in did not completely come through to the irc side

<r​ucknium:monero.social> sech1: Yes, but I'm not usually logged in. I just logged in now, so you can DM: Rucknium

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> my stupid idea is to merge mine 50% of blocks with LTC

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> ?

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> ? Idk tari split their PoW into parts and it makes sense to me. you'd effectively need to accumulate different types of hardware to mount a 51% attack, plus with merge mining you'd be partially secured by the emissions and network of LTC/doge, plus it's like, free marketing

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> and if we're at the point where there's semi serious discussion about going PoS, I'd rather effectively embrace a widely distributed ASIC platform than go PoS, personally

looks like a very complete post hbs. Since I don't have a github account I will comment here. The simplest takeaway of your suggestion is "privacy by default" which is a key component of Monero. Does anyone see any cons with implementing this as described?

<j​ack_ma_blabla:matrix.org> That also works, how decentralized is ltc mining though ?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Depends how decentralized you like your bitmain

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> kayabanerve: monero-project/research-lab #134#issuecomment-3128184730

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> depends on your measure I guess, more so than a lot of PoS networks for sure

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> a quick look shows 4 or 5 different brands of scrypt miners though, not just bitmain