Is it known who legally owns the website?

the monero.com domain? cake wallet itself owns it as far as I know

Like, sure, the comment is "core". If the comment is there is an individual, yet which won't be identified for security, also fine. I'm just curious if there's acknowledgement on the literal Namecheap account's legally acknowledged registrant.

It should be some individual, corporation, or organization. AFAICT, Core never formed either of the latter, meaning it probably resolves to fluffypony/moneromooo/someone else.

No, getmonero.org

I don't think monero.com is "the website" lol

But yes, I know what the above discussion is lol

but yes someone inside core owns the domain lol not sure if they will say who

Confirmation its an individual is sufficient for my purposes

Eh. I don't believe I care to leave a proper post at this time. I'll comment here I don't believe Cake deserves this level of hostility and we should put #2007 on hold until amicable resolutions, yet shouldn't be discussing this (#2013) at all until something actually happens

kayabanerve[m]: as you asking about the getmonero.org domain, DNS records, or server?

the first two have a "team" configured at Gandi and CloudFlare, respectively, that each member of the Core Team has access to

we have close relationships with both those orgs because we've been attacked so often, so they won't allow anything other than run-of-the-mill changes without requiring multiple Core Team members to validate it

they also have out-of-band contact details for us in case our normal pathing to them is compromised

and they still have to deal with regular social engineering attacks, so we're in a special class of domains that they refuse to deal with telephonically or via support channels

I meant the domain from a legal ownership perspective

Because while I'm very happy to hear it's properly secured, that doesn't confirm it's owned by multiple individuals legally via Gandi

Just that there's a team administering it

Core might be registered as an informal collective of people, but the problem cake would have is more related to monero's license as far as i can tell. So any of the hundreds of contributors could sue them for breaking the Monero license (attempt to impersonate the project)

kayabanerve[m]: it's legally owned by the team, from Gandi's perspective. There is no need for a domain to be owned by an individual or by a company.

Thank you for clarifying fluffypony:

ErCiccione: ... under what country are you basing that?

kayabanerve[m]: np, we've tried to keep core things as decentralised as possible, where possible

As an American commenting, no, that's absolutely not how that works here. There's no legally recognized brand ownership so it can't be impersonated

fluffypony: Right. That's still individual liability concerns there, even though I'm not sure those could be enforced lol, but it also prevents a single entity in a single country from being the holder.

the country doesn't matter. It's about the terms of the license for using Monero software. If cake includes any piece of code or binaries coming from the monero project, monero.com is violating the bsd-3 license

you don't need to have registered/recognized brand ownership to enforce a license

you just need to be a copyright owner

You could argue it's a violation of the third clause, except the name of the copyright holder isn't in use under your argument

Because either the copyright holder is an individual, which Cake isn't using the name of, or it's Monero, which Cake can claim to be a part of as much as any individual

I don't have a horse in this race, but I think that pissing off Monero's most prolific contributor is ill-advised.

So it's either not in use or being used by a contributor to the Monero project who has a claim equal to any other contributor in our unweighted system

i don't think that's how it works. You cannot just make a commit to the project and then use name and logo as you want in other projects

being a contributor doesn't give you that privilege

you stuill have to respect the terms of the license

... The Monero Project is on purposely legally undefined

but i am no lawyer

it doesn't need to be legally defined

You really can't claim to be more of a holder to the brand than anyone else. Even if someone tried, they'd have to argue, in American courts, they maintained the brand

It's why Zcash sends cease and desists to any store doing anything without the logo

If the brand hits mass adoption, it's not eligible for reservation. Velcro/rollerblades are discussed examples, though Velcro may still have the TM...

Except any claimant would have to argue their validity in a legal framework and its lack of definition means cake can also lay claim. While an individual could sue on their own behalf, cake isn't using an individual's name

Agreed fluffypony: and having heard there is a robust system to take ownership... Then the issues are two fold.

1) What would this domain be used for, in their opinion? Solely a redirect to getmonero (or vice versa)? I don't personally mind having a quality wallet there when it works with the team to resolve issues, is clear it's monero.com, not monero, and links to getmonero. My main concern would be Cake getting sold, and with it, the domain to a less helpful actor

2) ... Didn't they spend a lot of money on it?

they could have a landing page that says "looking for The Monero Project? Click here. Looking for the Monero.com wallet? Click here"

Tbc, no, not a lawyer either. I just know we haven't claimed our brand, there's no one who can represent monero in such a way, the original suggester of the name can be argued as having forfeited their rights to it, we haven't protected our brand, and the monero project as a whole is vast and undefined

I think they are doing that lol

It's why I suggested waiting and working it out

no they're not

the top of the site says "Monero is the gold standard in private digital payments", so to an observer it seems like this is the Monero website

the top menu says "Buy Monero, Wallets, News, Marketplace, Resources"

and then it says "Recommended wallet app" - recommended by Monero, it seems

this is what I'm talking about - Firefox used to have this landing page

on firefox.com

"are doing", not "have done"

Though no, I don't work there and couldn't comment on plans/timeline :p

kayabanerve[m]: ah I read "are doing" as in present tense :)

All good, and I know mooo hasn't done this overnight without thinking

So I'm not trying to dismiss their concerns nor frustrations

it's not just mooo. There are a lot of people pissed about this, rightfully. The PR answers from cake don't help

and the shady behaviours help even less

Ideally, yes, core would've been able to acquire it back in the day

While I can't say bitcoin.com went well, I will say I think I'm desensitized to .coms because of btc and crypto

I also believe cake wallet is a good wallet, one I personally use, and a monero only version is... Exactly that.

So while I'd agree with not ideal from a decentralization standpoint, I don't believe this is the worst scenario possible, nor one worthy of delisting cake entirety. Just one that has to be talked out

Though yes, I am concerned about what will happen eventually...

i think ethics matters and their behaviour about this situation doesn't really inspire trust, regardless of how good is the wallet (i personally never used cake or monero.com so i have no idea how good they are). It doesn't need to be the worst scenario possible to be bad

... I have the opposite opinion actually, yet that may be that. We'll see how this develops further

i fully support removing anything related to "monero.com"

it was a clear sleazy move to try and trick users in thinking its official, and trying to capitalize on the monero name

ErCiccione: the link to the initial reddit announcement - multiple people noted the lack of clarity regarding it not being a website run by cake

So this has been known to monero.com since release day.

i'm sure they are aware of the concerns. Now many are being loud about it, so they have to do something.

<fluffypony> "they could have a landing page..." <- We are putting a banner RIGHT at the top today/tomorrow which will clearly direct people to the open source monero project website.

* project website. (There is already a link at the bottom)

you need to make it obvious to braindead people such as myself

the problem with the link at the bottom is that 99% of users won't see it

<selsta> "the problem with the link at the..." <- agreed.. that's why we are adding at the top.

<selsta> "the problem with the link at the..." <- intentional

There was also a "learn more" button displayed as the first thing you can click on

That lead to the faq, in which the second question explained the whole thing

But yeah ofc the clear the better

And also some phrasing would have to be revised such as "recommended wallet app"

* wallet app" and "our app"

s/clear/clearer/

<gonbatfire[m]> "That lead to the faq, in which..." <- ... read the whole FAQ and skip the second question

The rest of the FAQ portrays monero.com as ... some sort of official site

"How to buy monero"

use monero.com

"How to get help with monero"

Email us

> <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> "How to get help with monero"

> Email us

Woah

That's 100% not okay

> <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> "How to get help with monero"

> Email us

recommended wallet are only official and cake wallets

It should at least mention other resources such as the subreddit

Or specify "How to get help with Cake Labs products"

I guess just have to avoid all the "our" words and replace them with "Cake Labs"

Its not large changes.. just some rewording here and there to reflex a more neutral website

Like "how to get help with monero" us at cake labs are always happy to help. Reach out at xyz.email or on twitter.

You can get help from the broader community by joining #monero on matrix or /r/monero on reddit"

I'm reading and noting all requests

> <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> "The real thing?? Who decides what the real thing is??"... (full message at libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/do…7efea5fcd60057a39d2af0d0bc54a1c9d13)