<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Harden said me or plow

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> i said plow

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I said me or plow*

plowsof would be a good candidate

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Plowsof was pow consensus

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> everyone loves plowsof

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> plow doesnt seem to want to

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Everyone is plowsof

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> wait I'm plowsof?

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Conscripted

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> geonic what question did I asked about Diego?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Been on the table for weeks (ive been arguing to get plow to do it)

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> ig Diego could be handed merge power?

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Just scream at him/her/google

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> ah alr

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> He said bbl when hardened nominated him a few mins ago lolol

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Congrats your super sayain merger

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> will read it in the near future

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Luigi's a funny guy. Throws some candy on the floor and says "fight for it"

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> i dont see it as candy

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> ofrnxmr's a funny guy. See luigi, proceeds to imagine black in white somehow

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> people are supposed to be great to their peers. Idk why he wants us to slander each other

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> where tf did he wants us to slander each other

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Ok. With merges done can I go back to designing?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> yes sir

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Yes @diego:cypherstack.com

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Back I go!

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> (Ill be getting whipped by plowsof for that list soon)

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> The design is just a bunch of monero chan pictures and a download button.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> damn, thats some prime toxic relationship

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> literally anonwallet on reddit in 2023

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Mspaint?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Gosh I wish. Figma charges an arm and a leg.

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> @plowsof:matrix.org are you willing to get merge powers?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Remember, there are no moral dilemma at cracking Adobe products

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Adobe didn't end up actually purchasing figma.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Deal fell through

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> thx god

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Better to not give an option

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Who else will reach consensus

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Since were all here, can i ask for a couple reviews on doc changes

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> monero-project/monero-docs #25 spelling and grammar for moneropulse doc

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Yalla

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> monero-project/monero-docs #16 contributing.md lifted from -site, outdated compared to /monero, but should still be good. Can use from from /monero if ppl prefer that one

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Maybe people on the pulse can look?

<3​21bob321:monero.social> I can look later if i remember

<3​21bob321:monero.social> ./remind in 6hrs

<g​ogofc:matrix.org> On the Website web.getmonero.org/resources/user-guides/join-monero-matrix.html you should probably state which Rooms are yours or official etc, but instead it just says search for Monero rooms that you like. So I just joined all of them with the name and logo Monero and one of them was Monero Austria and that's just bunch of PORN.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> the hangouts and workgroups page has the links to the "official" channels

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> The "how to join" page needs to be updated

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> the monero austria room is indeed full of porn / no admin there. it is hosted on matrix dot org, our of our control.

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> out*

<g​ogofc:matrix.org> nice, thanks I see that now.

<g​ogofc:matrix.org> Yeah I understand

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> the 1 account (a bot) spamming in there has been added to our global ban list now, thanks for reporting

plowsof has been promoted to write permissions. Currently the rules require 2 approvals after the latest push before merging. Let's see how it goes.

<c​hch3003:monero.social> What?

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> please update the proposal

<c​hch3003:monero.social> What do you mean? Which part?

<c​hch3003:monero.social> Ha yes the design. I will update when the design, and ideally the content, is ready

<q​uickex:matrix.org> Hey team, whats about 2318 merge?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> The more you ask, the more it gets pushed back

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Were a team of community members. We'll cross that bridge eventually

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> As you can see from 3messages above, we had no active maintainer before

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> We just got one. Let's not begin his first day with telling him to merge centralized services with 1 approval

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I approved the pr, but again, nothing is official. I am just 2 person. We are a community, and other community members (and contributors) need to also approve

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I approved the pr, but again, nothing is official. I am just 1 person. We are a community, and other community members (and contributors) need to also approve

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I _hope_ that now that we have a more active maintainer, we will see more frequent merges.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> For now, sit back and relax. (while we debate removing simpleswap)

<q​uickex:matrix.org> just clarifying because dont have exact undrestanding yet how these processes are leaded

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Before: waiting arbitrarily

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> now: ~2 approvals

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Rando write criteria k thnx bye

<b​asses:matrix.org> I think it needs discussion lol

<b​asses:matrix.org> I can't rule the criteria alone

<3​21bob321:monero.social> We like to be dominated 😏

we have no maintainer still, im just an extra person with merge rights :)

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Reduce your ccs price and you can be it

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Well if hardensteel does a good job ??

with a functional site workgroup we should have less need for a "maintainer" although still important.

with that being said i think a "things plowsof interested in page" would be awesome

<3​21bob321:monero.social> You can have working group but still need some to do the work

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Someone*

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Currently the lowest paid ccs for website is doing the work

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> i dont approving that ToS should be changed imo

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> i dont approving, that ToS should be changed imo

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> they dont even accept mixed coins

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> they have an aml checker

<b​asses:matrix.org> Hello everyone, we need to work on criteria, publish it on website, then review relevant PRs and existing listings based on that.

<b​asses:matrix.org> Criteria will be created for these 2 pages:

<b​asses:matrix.org> Merchants & Exchanges: getmonero.org/community/merchants

<b​asses:matrix.org> Mobile & Light Wallets: getmonero.org/downloads

<b​asses:matrix.org> For reference on how a criteria should look like: privacyguides.org/en/vpn/#criteria

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Like whirlpool ?

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Ccs approved

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> - Maintainers SHALL NOT make value judgments on correct patches.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> - Any Contributor who has value judgments on a correct patch SHOULD express these via their own patches.

<b​asses:matrix.org> paid with good exposure 😢

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> monero-project/monero-site #2045#issuecomment-1441342078

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> majesticbanks thoughts on criteria for exchanges

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Grampys for wallets

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> monero-project/monero-site #2162

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> made a related issue just now for discussing adding rino monero-project/monero-site #2362

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> monero-project/monero-site #2143

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> a recently rejected wallet that was scraping fees

<3​21bob321:monero.social> github.com/monero-project/monero-site/discussions

<3​21bob321:monero.social> ^ so we dont go post malone

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Without defined criteria, if a pr for it is opened, it should be listed

<3​21bob321:monero.social> And add to meeting agenda?

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> in the early days, rinos source was not yet available, but that is not the case anymore

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Criteria should have some roots in past discussions. Such as

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> - around for 1yr

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> - open source

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> - not spyware / doesnt include trackers

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> - dont list / remove listings with bad reviews

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> thanks ofrnxmr for linking the MB/cryptograpmy comments/issues

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Google fonts api allowed ?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Cloudflare :D lol

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I would move to delist edge wallet simply based on the included trackers

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Forgot rule one

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> problem: if we try to ask the greater audience on a large ish platform for feedback about a wallet/swappet , e.g. reddit/twitter/monero town/c/monero - there is bound to be manipulation somewhere

<3​21bob321:monero.social> 1. Supports monero

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> i dont care to ask twitter or reddit

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Just ask here

<3​21bob321:monero.social> In 1 yrs time we will have pow consensus

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> listing the exchange from vietnam and asking here wouldnt get us anywhere

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Your opening a can of worms

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I use a lot of these things heavily myself. Ive actually used quickex 3 times via trocador

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> we had to rely on possibly manipulated reddit threads/tweets

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Too many chiefs

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> And re stealthex and exolix, we asked trocador admins for their reason for ratings

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> but that particular example was existing for almost a decade and had privacy focused things such as cash for crypto atm's but yeah

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> And found out that one of them had refused to refund customers w/o reason and was permanent demoted

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Just list trocador and then what eva they use

<q​uickex:matrix.org> btw talked with orangefren today regarding exolix rates, they inflate it

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> That too

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> some swappers intentionally use non-standard fees, leading to fingerprintability of the tx

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> So i dont really care if there is a bot campaign to promote or demote a service. I test it myself and make my own judgements.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Even stack wallet and cake wallet

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> even cake wallet uses non-standard fees when auto selected

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> look how many ppl called me a bad actor for exposing those wallets for making external connections

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> to their excuses, guessing the fee for a monero transaction was a pain.. they decided to hardcode it for simplicity :) to our detriment

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> ah yes u already said that

<q​uickex:matrix.org> Trocador has adjustment for that, so their rates are basically lower

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> jeffro256 has fixed that now. rucknium done alot of research in that area

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> No it doesnt?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Cake uses the fee returned by the daemon

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> "auto" has been pumped to priority ..... 2, i forget

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> The estimated fees in cake are hardcoded and completely3 wrong

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> but the actual fee in cake is accurate to what the daemon suggests

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> totally forgot about "they need to use the reference wallet implementation for assigning fees"

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> when i use auto fee priority the fee differs than slow medium fast etc.

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> unless its changed

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Whatever it is, is completely wrong :D lol. Hardcoded before hardwprk

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> auto was broken / not working how you would expect it to

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> perhaps we are talking about a broken thing that was recently updated

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> The fee/byte is standard and cakes implementation should be using wallet_2api which pulls from the daemon

hardenedsteel the recent change to auto monero-project/monero #9219

although sgp had some pushback on this here : monero-project/monero #9219#issuecomment-1984717390

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> im talking about cake wallet

at the time was working for cake, so hardenedsteels comments could be plausible

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> just checked right now and yes cake wallet uses non standard fees when auto selected

but the term none standard does not mean "it uses the wallet2 api and picks slow, instead of normal"

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Send a tx and check it on the explorer for fee per byte

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> The fees are standard

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> then does estimated fee wrong?

their auto picks a different 'standard' priority, is what i think you are saying

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> estimated is wrong, yes

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Their auto is fee prioritiy lvl 0

which could possibly have some finger printability going on, i dont know cc Rucknium

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…ero.social/vyhdbtMoGJBghTRkctszzKTw

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> this is slow

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…ero.social/uxVekTvCYmvvraQaTAaYRTjO

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> this is medium

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> this is auto

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…ero.social/szzqZQAXditleEJWrTJTXkwL

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> why its between slow and medium?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> yes that is a hardcoded value

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> this doesnt happen with feather wallet

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> begin the transaction and before pressing confirm it will show the real fee

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Yes

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Feather doesnt use hardcoded values

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> if (priority is MoneroTransactionPriority) {

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> switch (priority) {

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> case MoneroTransactionPriority.slow:

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> return 24590000;

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> case MoneroTransactionPriority.automatic:

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> return 123050000;

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> case MoneroTransactionPriority.medium:

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> return 245029999;

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> case MoneroTransactionPriority.fast:

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> return 614530000;

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> case MoneroTransactionPriority.fastest:

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> github.com/cake-tech/cake_wallet/bl…Flib%2Fmonero_wallet.dart#L337-L349

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> wtf whats the point of that?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…ero.social/PuSAzTefiuPqUhUrorIsbLdO

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Being lazy

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ye

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Stack _just_ got listed, and it leaks connections

<b​asses:matrix.org> don't try to be too specific, when just mentioning trackers should be enough

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I was attacked and called a bad actor for pointing out when cake did this

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> So lets go for round 2

<b​asses:matrix.org> google font can try visitors IP any may includ

<b​asses:matrix.org> google font can try visitors IP

<b​asses:matrix.org> google font can track visitors IP

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> remind me which?

regarding Edge wallet trackers: they have sentry (reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/trackers/447) for uploading possibly personal identifyable info for crach/error reports. Question is: if they have an Opt in/out for this, is it then ok? (i have never used edge wallet so i cant say)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> All electrum nodes for all enabled wallets are contacted at launch, regardless of the sync setting

wait, cake wallet hard codes fees

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> only in the ui @plow

gotcha, the estimate screen. but the on chain tx is standard?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Yea

ohh ok

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Once you press "send", the confirm screen shows the real fee

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Google good , ofrn bad

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> looking now. I recall you told this to me. Sorry for the delay.

the fee estimates are broken (in the gui, which uses a core wallet function) selsta can expand if needed

<3​21bob321:monero.social> They are just testing you

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Ledger confirm tx id , yes yes yolo

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> basicswap has estimate fee button, which sends the tx with do_not_relay and returns your exact fee

plowsof: I think the problem is it doesn't know the amount of inputs so it can't estimate the fee correctly

but maybe there is another issue i don't remember

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Yes

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> The way that plowsof and i estimate the fee correctly, is with do_not_relay

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> (do_not_relay uses the actual inputs and shows the exact fees). Without knowing the inputs, you cant know the fees. Of course, one could code a function to mimic the input selection algo, but that sounds like a headache

its resource intensive too as it builds the entire transaction for nuthin, we need speed, we need hardcoded values!

the competition can't compete

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> i think stack might be using do_not_relay

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> If you proceed with the tx, the build is already done, so it makes it appear faster

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Instead of waiting for "send" to build, it builds when you input the amount.

true, true (and enables an easy path to multi node broadcasting )

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> This is why we need a monero-only stack wallet 🙃

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> It could never have had this connection bug

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Diego Salazar: ehh ehh 😁

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Nudge nudge

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Duo not good enough?

Monronly

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Duo has the bug and i havent used btc in 4yrs

<b​asses:matrix.org> yes

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Yes what

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Opt in/out? No

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Foss only

oh right, edge isnt foss?

<b​asses:matrix.org> Also google font on website doesn't matter that much tbh as you u can download from fdroid store (cakewallet)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Whats next, coinwallet and exodus wallet? Xmrwallet.com? No thanks

<b​asses:matrix.org> if it is opt in, then great

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Its not foss when the binary can't be built without those non-foss trackers

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Put whatever you want in your google play app. If there isn't a foss version available, its not foss

the wallet we rejected because it had an on the fly 'pay amount unknown' to the wallet devs on each transaction should have been closed source with trackers and then its fine?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/re…/co.edgesecure.app/latest/#trackers

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> It asked a million permissions that are all used for tracking-only

the tracker is not even the main problem when you check the permissions, strange

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> "<p​lowsof> the wallet we rejected because it had an on the fly 'pay amount unknown' to the wallet devs on each transaction should have been closed source with trackers and then its fine?" Right? Lololol. Opt out of trackers, lets list this hot garbage /s

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> edge doesnt store the wallet on device either iirc

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> It stores it on their server "encrypted"

edge out, rino in 🤷

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I haven't used rino, but its just a frontend for multisig. I think it would be a new category though

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> SaaS etc

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Military grade encryption sir

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I dont think its ever a good idea to store keys on a server. No sure how rino deals with this. Maybe the user keys are all client-side

rino are still running a LWS type service but with the multisig keys they know whats change / isn't?

im not sure

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> i think multisig requires you to resync with peers to know change outputs etc.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> we need a youtube demo of rino

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> we cant have strict criteria for mobile

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> there are only a few wallet

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> all of them sucks imho

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Erm, im not ok with listing wallets that steal from users

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> If coinwallet was proprietary, we'd never know that it was stealing users

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> From* users

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Odd name

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> There are only a handful of monero wallets that _arent_ scams

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Freewallet, xmrwallet, coinwallet, a few more that are still on the reddit automod recommendations, all scams

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Speak to reddit mod?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Edge uses mymonero's backend and stores your wallet on their server while using proprietary tracking software. Why would a _privacy_ project list such a thing

<3​21bob321:monero.social> We use google so bar is set low

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> oh just talking in general

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> r u referring to edge wallet?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> No. Edge doesn't steal, but (iirc) they do store the wallet files on their server

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Checking if a wallet or exchanger produces wallet2-like transactions before adding them to getmonero.org sounds like a good idea to me :)