-
apotheon
What's the easiest, most pain-free, most straightforward way for someone who's never dealt with cryptocurrencies before to buy some Monero to use to pay for something?
-
LyzaL
probably LocalMonero if they have someone local. Maybe Kraken if in the US and don't mind KYC
-
apotheon
not US
-
apotheon
Also . . . I've seen Kraken, and most people would find its UI opaque, I think.
-
apotheon
This may be too much for this particular person, really. I'm just hoping. . . .
-
LyzaL
maybe but the number of places to buy XMR directly is pretty limited. but you could have them from coinbase or whatever the lcoal version is to cake wallet, I guess. changenow might be an option with credit card? never used it as a fiat gateway
-
apotheon
Coinbase doesn't support Monero.
-
apotheon
I don't know anything about changenow, but I'll look that up.
-
LyzaL
right but cake wallet supports btc <> xmr swaps
-
LyzaL
or ltc <> xmr
-
apotheon
Yeah, then . . . buying one cryptocurrency to buy another.
-
apotheon
hmm
-
apotheon
Things get too complicated very quickly for some people to bother.
-
LyzaL
yea
-
ndorf
apotheon: Kraken's legacy UI is a wasteland yeah but they also have a much better one powered by cryptowat.ch, at
trade.kraken.com
-
apotheon
That does not look comprehensible to an average person who's used to something like the Amazon UI for buying something.
-
apotheon
To most people, that looks like science fiction.
-
LyzaL
that's how u know it's cool
-
apotheon
.xmr
-
Wallet
apotheon: ≈$270.1128 • ≈ value of: 1 XMR • Source: cmc/ccc/altm
-
ndorf
apotheon: there's a (new, i think?) mobile app that is targeted at such average users, never tried it myself though
-
apotheon
Maybe I'll look into that.
-
ndorf
(the "Kraken" app, not the "Kraken Pro" one, that one's for advanced users, heh)
-
Bill48105
many already migrate their Wallet bot balances away from freenode but if anyone didn't, get with me to do so now
-
apotheon
I showed trade.kraken.com to two people and they both basically threw up their hands and walked away.
-
apotheon
(not literally performing those physical actions, but that kinda describes their reactions)
-
xorax
.beg
-
Wallet
xorax: What number is ONE
-
xorax
1
-
Wallet
xorax: @bonuspot tipped 0.0000012 XMR to xorax [37fd2e3c] Wait ≈23 hrs 58 min before trying again. @bonuspot: 0.01554484
-
Mochi101
apotheon, sounds like they weren't really open to it in the first place.
-
apotheon
Mochi101: it looks like an alien system to people who aren't familiar with trading platforms
-
apotheon
Mochi101: The Coinbase (non-pro) interface is simple, but for someone who's not an experienced trader would find Kraken impenetrable.
-
apotheon
(at least at first)
-
Mochi101
sure
-
Mochi101
They need a simple interface. Like, a big button in the middle of their screen under the heading, "Press Here for Lambo".
-
apotheon
How does a candlestick chart, something that bears some resemblance to a small part of a topographical map, a chart of positives and negatives without immediate timing context, and a column of columns of numbers, all text rather cramped and small, with stuff that moves around and creates new text flashing across the screen when one moves the mouse, give someone new to this the impression that
-
apotheon
there's an easy way to buy some BTC and send it somewhere?
-
apotheon
I'm not talking about how to turn people into daytraders. I'm talking about how someone can get a little Monero to use as currency for a purchase of goods or services.
-
apotheon
If there isn't an easy way for someone without any past experience in this stuff to do this easily, fine. Things move at their own speed; it'll come along when it comes along. I understand. If there is, but someone doesn't know it, that's fine too.
-
apotheon
What gets me is that the answer to "grandma wants an easy way to buy some cool swag from an online store using Monero" is "She should learn a daytrader dashboard interface!"
-
Mochi101
The real question is, "Why is grandma buying drugs on the darknet?"
-
Mochi101
apotheon, I don't know how old you are, but I remember when bank debit cards were first introduced. It took time for people to adopt it. Even 10 years ago in Mexico I still asked if a store took a debit card or not.
-
Mochi101
So crypto is pretty new, and its adoption is voluntary rather than forced, so it can be expected to take a lot longer than something like a bank card.
-
Monegro
Reality, no crypo act properly as scalable currency
-
Monegro
Monero gets the fundamentals right. But good luck scaling the western world on XMR to 3-10 transactions per day on current storage/bandwidth; .. without requiring centralized hardware
-
Monegro
Luckily, Monero *does* have the scalability to act as a from of digital gold [ that is, *actual* digital gold, not just narrative moonboi claims]
-
Monegro
Bitcoin's best bet to remain relevant, is to scale eventually to 10 or 50 MB blocks, with a functional LN. People store value in XMR, and atomic swap to BTC for LN scalability, while remaining anonymous/fungbile
-
Monegro
It's slightly amusing, how all the narratives self applied to BTC are actually relevant to Monero. And the tradeoffs applied to "shitcoins" by them really should just be self applies as the toilet paper ... one of many ... solutions to scaling the base layer of digital gold ... aka Monero
-
LyzaL
<apotheon> cashapp is dummy simple if available where you are
-
LyzaL
Hell, I think Cake wallet even lets you buy BTC with fiat now but you'll get eat up in fees
-
ycihepgxxkm
Did you know that all witdraw-buyer-seller-depoist chains are trackable in Monero? No? You should have read Breaking Monero. How many people are you endangering with your 'privacy' coin?
-
walton
is he suggesting monero is not private ?
-
ErCiccione1
walton: he is a spammer. Ignore.
-
walton
alright
-
Mochi101
.faucet
-
Wallet
Mochi101: How long is the word told
-
Mochi101
4 characters
-
Wallet
Mochi101: Oops that is not correct. Try again later. (No not immediately or I'll just ignore you..)
-
epxjulsxrw
I can tell you why you can't stop the 'spam'. You are thinking in cult doctrine. If it was real spam, and I was selling Viagra for example - you could easily ban keywords and urls. Instead, stop being a sheep, think like a cult leader. Recoginse that this 'spam' is just some bullshit that you tell to the sheep.
-
epxjulsxrw
When you do that, solution will present itself. Observe. 'spam' -> 'FUK talks bad things about Monero on our IRC' (Don't say that out loud obviously, that will get you excommunicated) Solution? Get off-the-shelf sentiment analyser, detect anyone who 'talks bad things about Monero' and ban them.
-
Mochi101
.faucet
-
Wallet
Mochi101: How many letters in soup
-
Mochi101
4
-
Wallet
Mochi101: @bonuspot tipped 0.0000111 XMR to Mochi101 [244b6d74] Wait ≈1 day 1 min before trying again. @bonuspot: 0.01553374
-
Mochi101
BIG pot!!!
-
Mochi101
So we have this spam again hey... jeese
-
walton
It looks like spam indeed. As it doesn't contain any useful information.
-
hv-bridge
<likemir> @everyone OMG guys I just send this dude trade offer and he gave me his knife for free! Try your luck maybe he will give you some skins as well.
steancomunnity.ru/tradeoffer/new/?partner=1018153000&token=HawSEARY
-
Mochi101
It's been going on for a long time walton. Someone who has far too much time on their hands.
-
thedragon
.faucet
-
Wallet
thedragon: How many letters in LTC
-
thedragon
3
-
Wallet
thedragon: @bonuspot tipped 0.0000055 XMR to thedragon [8d30ff81] Wait ≈23 hrs 59 min before trying again. @bonuspot: 0.01552824
-
Bill48105
likemir is why my bridge filters urls
-
Mochi101
lol Bill48105
-
Mochi101
OMG Bill48105!
-
apotheon
Mochi101: As I said, I understand that it takes time.
-
» Bill48105 slaps Mochi101 and starts getting carried away
-
apotheon
Mochi101: 07:12 < apotheon> If there isn't an easy way for someone without any past experience in this stuff to do this easily, fine. Things move at their own speed; it'll come along when it comes along.
-
apotheon
Mochi101: My frustration is that whenever I see it come up people act like using something like Kraken is as familiar and easy for most people as pulling twenties from their back accounts at an ATM.
-
apotheon
hmm
-
apotheon
It'd be nice if there were a bunch of Monero ATMs.
-
apotheon
walton: There's a guy with a grudge against Monero who has bots popping up under different names just long enough to post bullshit. Now you know the story behind the "spammer". In Second Life terms (if you've heard of that), he's a "griefer" -- just trying to make life suckier for other people.
-
apotheon
Lyza: If you're also LyzaL . . . thanks for the reference to chashapp. I don't recall whether I've heard of that.
-
apotheon
07:48 < Monegro> Monero gets the fundamentals right. But good luck scaling the western world on XMR to 3-10 transactions per day on current storage/bandwidth
-
apotheon
Monegro: We don't know what the future holds. It could get what it needs to scale.
-
apotheon
Monegro: On the other hand, I don't think we need One RingCT To Rule Them All, anyway. We need a thriving free market in cryptocurrencies. In the meantime, Monero's awesome, and what we need for now -- and it's not ossified, petrified in its present form, like what BTC devs are forcing on BTC.
-
hyc
no sinle blockchain will ever scale to meet global demand. The only way forward is to subdivide. per-continent, or regional chains.
-
hyc
above a certain threshold the waste is just inexcusable. e.g., nobody needs 7 billion other people to validate their coffee purchase.
-
hyc
exactly where that threshold is remains to be determined
-
apotheon
I'm skeptical about the need for geographic division per se, except in cases where there's really significant latency (like interplanetary stuff). Yeah, it needs some subdivision, but I suspect what'd work best is more about meeting different needs rather than effectively having borders.
-
hyc
if you're suggesting purpose-specific coins, that sounds like a mess.
-
apotheon
Some may be geographically focused, but those, I'd think, would mostly be for things like mesh networks and/or coincidentally geographic because geography might in some cases strongly correlate with specific techical needs.
-
apotheon
Not exactly purpose-specific so much as just slightly different designs that serve some purposes better than others -- fuzzy purpose-orientation, not purpose-limiting.
-
apotheon
again, "thriving ecosystem" stuff
-
hyc
I view a thriving ecosystem in cryptocoin development as sheer waste. there is only 1 Internet, and everybody in the world can use it. (with weird exceptions like CHina's great firewall, etc.)
-
apotheon
We have a global internet, so I'm not sure there's a strong motivation to consciously subdivide geographically except as an artificially imposed measure in an almost central-planning way.
-
hyc
if there were a thousand internets with their own unique protocols, the internet would never have reached any level of usefulness
-
hyc
there were a half-dozen competitors for dominance - XNS, OSI, Novell, etc. but the world has benefited from there being only a single set of network standards now in use.
-
hyc
and at the end of the day - digital cash doesn't need a wide variety of functions. it merely needs to be reliably spendable.
-
apotheon
. . . so you'd prefer region-limited variants of Microsoft Office, rather than MS Office, LibreOffice, OpenOffice, Google Workspace, Calligra Suite, Emacs, and so on, I guess.
-
apotheon
(as an analogy)
-
hyc
no, because none of those systems' functionality depends on communicating with the rest of the world for every operation
-
apotheon
Tell that to people sharing business documents across corporations and continents.
-
hyc
nobody is updating a biz doc and sharing to 7 billion other people
-
hyc
there's a huge difference in scale between that and digital money for everyone in the world
-
apotheon
I suspect there will not be seven billion people using a single cryptocurrency all the time, either.
-
apotheon
I doubt we'll have any currency that scales that well until we're at the cusp of the technological singularity.
-
hyc
I think if society continues on and there are still thousands of incompatible cryptocoins, the entire effort will have been a failure
-
apotheon
depends on your definition of "continues on"
-
hyc
E.g., I think the Eurozone benefits from having a single Euro instead of 27 unique currencies
-
hyc
the US benefits from having a single dollar instead of 50 unique state currencies
-
Mochi101
guys, please verify I just bought a coffee...
-
hyc
hang on, I just unplugged my abacus a sec ago
-
apotheon
I dunno, I see atomic swaps and think "This makes multiple currencies work better together than they ever have in history."
-
apotheon
I feel like you're saying "multiple currencies have historically been difficult to get working together, so we shouldn't allow for competition between different ideas about how to improve things".
-
hyc
no, not exactly. I already acknowledged the competition between different ideas of Internet protocols.
-
apotheon
. . . and no, I don't think the current conception of atomic swaps is the endgame. I see it as evidence that all barriers can be overcome, often in ways that haven't yet occurred to us.
-
hyc
I just think thousands is excessively wasteful
-
hyc
especially when the majority of them don't being any legitimate innovation to the table
-
apotheon
I think thousands is inevitable, but eventually it may be down to hundreds or dozens of maybe just a score that are globally relevant.
-
apotheon
Well . . . right now we have many that just kinda suck, of course.
-
apotheon
It's still a very experimental field of endeavor, after all.
-
Lyza
<apotheon> yw!
-
apotheon
People make too many decisions based on confusing a lack of knowledge with the presence of knowledge, too -- such as thinking MimbleWimble is an all-around better privacy measure than what Monero does, when really some level of privacy is just a (less complete) side-effect of MimbleWimble's actual primary utility.
-
apotheon
. . . so we get well-meaning efforts that result in really bad outcomes.
-
apotheon
I'm curious to see how a thriving ecosystem eventually looks.
-
hyc
I agree that atomic swaps are an essential element going forward. but they're still a point of friction.
-
hyc
it would be better overall to have e.g. only 7 points of friction (one per continent) than hundreds or thousands
-
apotheon
Right now, though, we at minimum are going to need a really private cryptocurrency (Monero seems to be the only serious contender; I'd included Wownero, except it is by definition not serious), a shitty thing to distract people who would only be bad for the serious stuff, and something between the two as a way to provide some buffer for Monero adoption.
-
apotheon
. . . and I don't think we can just design how that's going to work.
-
apotheon
Oh, yeah, and there should probably be a few "smart chains" that are actually useful, but the "currency" aspects are secondary, if necessary.
-
hyc
eth seems to fill that role
-
apotheon
(just, please, not that Internet Computer bullshit)
-
hyc
well, along with its growing number of competitors
-
hyc
lol... you just nailed it I think. ETH is a honeypot for bad developers
-
apotheon
There are interesting things about Beam and Ergo, but I think the devs and communities for them are a bit blinded to some aspects of what they're doing, unfortunately.
-
apotheon
Part of the problem with those communities is, in my opinion, the widespread notion across cryptocurrency communities that there must be One True Currency.
-
apotheon
. . . so, for instance, both Beam and Ergo think they're better privacy cryptocurrencies than Monero, even though they are obviously worse at privacy.
-
apotheon
(at least so far)
-
apotheon
They *must* think so to continue supporting their One True Currency narratives.
-
hyc
I don't have a problem with that belief. Go all the way back to the biblical story of the Tower of Babel
-
hyc
having multiple splinters hampers human progress
-
apotheon
. . . which limits their ability to view things objectively and make better decisions.
-
apotheon
I dunno. I think the world benefits from the ability to produce a direct competitor to an open source project that doesn't meet everyone's needs equally by just forking it.
-
hyc
that's only true IMO if the people doing the forking are capable of actually developing it further
-
hyc
most forks don't fit that
-
Lyza
I don't really see it as splinters -- the ecosystem is getting more and more tied together. When you have bridges and chains that interact with each other, it's all one ecosystem
-
apotheon
yep
-
apotheon
That's kinda where I see things going.
-
Lyza
is why I'm really happy to see different bridges to/from monero being built
-
hyc
in that case I guess we can quit development of monero itself already. it will easily handle the traffic of the fraction of population that wants to use it.
-
hyc
if there's no point in trying to create the One True Cryptocurrency, then cool, job done.
-
Lyza
I wouldn't go that far. It's important for a coin to have a niche, and compete within it. Monero as a privacy coins definitely competes with other privacy coins. But I don't see it ever being a competitor to Ethereum or vice versa
-
Lyza
like, I get the arguments about privacy and fungibility, but I expect fully transparent blockchains to stay relevant for various reasons. sometimes transparent is what's called for
-
Lyza
anyway bbl
-
hyc
.bbl
-
apotheon
hyc: I don't think that follows at all from what has been said.
-
apotheon
Always improving is important, even always improving (to some extent) as though there should be only one -- but always with the awareness to realize there may never be only one.
-
apotheon
Once something achieves effective monopoly, it tends to degrade anyway, which then creates a need for competitors. Consider the especially dramatic example of BTC.
-
hyc
people always ask "will monero scale to visa-level transactions" or whatever nonsense
-
hyc
now it seems the right answer is "it will never need to"
-
hyc
BTC is a poor example since it was only prototype-quality code and never fit for production use
-
apotheon
"No. It will scale to the level of transactions needed by a currency for which Visa is meaningless, whatever that is."
-
apotheon
BTC could've improved.
-
apotheon
Instead, it floundered, failed to find direction for a while, then took a hard left turn into shitsville.
-
hyc
I suppose. if you'd seen the quality of thinking going in, it would be obvious it never would.
-
apotheon
That's why it went the direction it did, certainly.
-
apotheon
Hell, shitty thinking in that community is why it didn't even have much of a direction for a while, before it picked the apparent direction of "into the ground".
-
leonardus
did anyone here from the us report crypto on taxes this year
-
leonardus
or not
-
walton
Syntax Error. Cannot compute.
-
apotheon
walton: indeed
-
apotheon
leonardus: As far as I'm aware, you're not even "supposed to" file unless it's income or capital gains (or business taxes), in the US.
-
apotheon
. . . and it's not like I'm a daytrader.
-
leonardus
i bought but never sold and didnt file anything cause i didnt have any gains
-
ndorf
spending it also counts as a sale. otherwise you have nothing to report
-
Bill48105
.bal
-
Wallet
Bill48105: 0.00502433 XMR (≈$1.37)
-
Bill48105
ok default is set here
-
ndorf
.bal
-
Wallet
ndorf: 0.00474402 XMR (≈$1.29)
-
mfoolb
.bal
-
Wallet
mfoolb: 0.00647434 XMR (≈$1.76)
-
ndorf
.tip Bill48105 .001
-
Wallet
ndorf: Access denied for tip. Are you logged in?
-
leonardus
ndorf: i didnt spend it i lost my wallet password
-
leonardus
:)
-
ndorf
leonardus: oopsie daisy ;)
-
Bill48105
2fa ftw
-
walton
stop showing off, you rich people !
-
walton
.bal
-
Wallet
walton: 0.0000036 XMR (≈$0)
-
Bill48105
thanks for the tip ndorf too bad it didn't work thanks to 2fa :D
-
ndorf
i resent it via pm after unlocking :D
-
Bill48105
oh lol thanks :D
-
Bill48105
had i been monitoring debug console i would have seen it
-
ndorf
asleep at the switch!
-
Bill48105
touch busy eh
-
bschwarz6
.beg
-
Wallet
bschwarz6: OOPS! 30 min penalty. 24 hours to go.
-
bschwarz6
i feel like i always have 24 hours to go ...
-
ncflhnyjohvs
FUK has bееn intеnsеly hostilе to Monеro for ovеr 4 yеars. Making minеrs for Monеro, making a pool for Monеro, making codе that Monеro copiеd, not using bugs to stеal millions from еxchangеs. Wow. Such grеat hostility.
-
Bill48105
it always is if you just did faucet lol
-
bschwarz6
Bill is that just on this channel? usually its once a day, and i get that ... is this channel pooled with another maybe? like if i just did faucet at doge, the timer is the same as this channel?
-
bschwarz6
or is it one faucet per day across all channels
-
bschwarz6
i was originally just on doge and then joined here, so i dont know that i would have noticed ...
-
Bill48105
bschwarz6 users who are on multiple platforms can have their accounts linked to 1 timer
-
bschwarz6
so i suppose that is what is going on here then?
-
Bill48105
maybe i'd have to check. are you on more than libera
-
bschwarz6
i was on freenode, but not any more. i have a discord as well, but i assume that is a different bot, no?
-
Bill48105
same bot if it's Wallet
-
bschwarz6
it is ...
-
Bill48105
faucet timers are per account. some official coin channels choose to have their own timer then users get a separate channel timer too
-
bschwarz6
how can i tell if my nicks are linked?
-
bschwarz6
.whoami
-
Wallet
bschwarz6: You are bschwarz6 with id/acct bschwarz6 on libera in #monero & bot account bschwarz6@libera
-
Bill48105
if you tryt o faucet on both & it tells you you already did faucet
-
bschwarz6
gotcha, thanks Bill. I will try to remember to faucet here first next time and see if thats the case
-
Bill48105
what is your name on discord then
-
bschwarz6
same - bschwarz6
-
Thanos
.faucet
-
Wallet
Thanos: How many characters in van
-
Thanos
3
-
Wallet
Thanos: @bonuspot tipped 0.000005 XMR to Thanos [9dabc6e2] Wait ≈23 hrs 55 min before trying again. @bonuspot: 0.01551584
-
Mochi101
.balance
-
Wallet
Mochi101: • Your balance is: 0.0026722 XMR (≈0.73 USD)
-
Mochi101
.whoami
-
Wallet
Mochi101: You are Mochi101 with id/acct Mochi101 on libera in #monero & bot account Mochi101@libera
-
apotheon
Today, I learned that sending a 380-something page, Tomoe River 68gsm paper, A5 journal in the mail to Canada would cost almost as much in shipping as the object itself.
-
apotheon
Actually, I guess I learned it yesterday, but close enough.
-
apotheon
international shipping for payment in Monero: not worthwhile, thanks to shipping
-
Wolf0
.balance
-
Wallet
Wolf0: Your default coin is now set to XMR. Change with coins command.
-
Wallet
Wolf0: • Your balance is: 0 XMR
-
Bill48105
.tip Wolf0 $0.01
-
Wallet
Bill48105 tipped 0.00003623 XMR (≈$0.01) to Wolf0 [20fff6f7]
-
Bill48105
Wallet is taking over the world wolf
-
Bill48105
havent got them to agree to it in monero discord or matrix yet though :D
-
rustin
Are there instructions on how to link my account, so that I could use the faucet command?
-
Bill48105
you dont need to link accounts to use faucet rustin. but yeah you're not supposed to hop from account to account to do multiple faucets
-
Bill48105
linking isn't required but helps keep you honest making them share 1 timer