hello

hi

hi! one question about tail emission. I understand it's required to incentivize miners without having very high fees. But what about a middle ground? the basic idea would be something like this. 99% of fees are burned. You raise fee price until as average, you burn more coins that are created (i.e.: like 1% yearly deflation)

or another example, if 0.6 xmr is created each block, you raise fees so at least, as an average, 0.7 xmr is burned per block.

why burn in the first place? So that number can go up?

yep

current fee/tail emission structure works

if it works, don't touch it

I dunno, buy Dogecoin or Shiba if you want number go up

more correctly, so value go up with time.

not number

I think it should be clear now that crypto is not going to be widely used in daily payments, especially privacy coins, as it would be very easy to avoid taxes.

if fees are 0.7 xmr per block, no one would use it

so very small fees are less important that long term value

it's like $1 per transaction

small fees are more important than long term value

xmr works equally well is it costs $1 or $1000

yep, roughly it would be 1$ per tx

if more people use monero, it could be less

the more tx, the lower fees can be

I don't want laser eyes and number go up people, Monero is a currency and is supposed to be used

so low fees

monero is not a currency, and no government will allow it. It's a cryptocurrency which allows private payments, not a currency.

I'd rather see XMR=$100 and accepted in every store than XMR=$10,000 and accepted only for VPN and exchanges

cryptocurrency is a currency

I'm sorry, but you will never see Monero accepted in stores

monero is cryptocurrency -> monero is currency

logic

neither Monero nor any other privacy coin

if are lucky they will allow BTC and others, but privacy coins, you can bet that will never happen.

I've already seen it accepted in stores

because lack of regulation

the taxman don't like it

I mean widely used. Regulations are coming.

what government would allow it?

something that allow people to easily avoid taxes?

what government would allow cash?

I mean, it can be easily used to avoid taxes

cash destruction is coming too

in some years we will not have cash

I can pay my buddy $100 to do home repairs and get away without paying taxes!

the IRC police have been informed

that are small amounts

inform twitter police too while you're at it :P

seriously, no goverment is going to legally allow it

i'm informing everyone!!

at this point it should be clear

Good thing is, Monero doesn't need permission from government

sure, from private payments, but try to do it with a (legal) shop.

monero doesn't need permission, but you need it for all other things of your business

the importance of low fees come from the possibility of people doing daily payments with Monero. But I'm sorry my friend that will never happen.

legally xD

kenshir0: maybe not in your country / region

I can see it happen here, where cash is still considered normal

I love this project, but I think the correct way in this matter is the Bitcoin way: security through high fees, and fast/cheap payments with a layer 2. That makes the coin gold and currency at the same time.

kenshir0: btw, in EU's current inflation environment it might actually implode EUR such that people will flock to alternatives (because they are otherwise locked out of their bank accounts)

(and limited supply of course)

dsc_ yep, but the best for that is BTC I think

BTC is not suitable for payments becaues it is transparent, that is a risk

people will eventually prefer something that works better

yep but the most important function of crypto is as a store of value. You can always swap each month for your national currencty to make payments.

traditional money is already working fine to make payments. You only can to swap your store of value of choice for your national currency.

most important function of crypto is not store of value

its permission & anonymous payments

permissionless*

we have that with cash too

the government always allow a form of payment

call it X

traditional money does *not* work fine to make payments, if I want to send money to sech1 and he is in Russia I can first spend 20minutes on the phone with my bank about why my account is temporarily locked

what people need the most is a good store of value and not be robbed by the goverment through inflation.

for international payments, average people can use a exchange. That cleans your personal history from blockchain.

you can use coinbase or other to send any crypto to any country, and that comes from the wallet of the exchange. It's not your history.

exchanges are centralized, commercial parties with KYC that report your transactions just like any bank would

but that's not my point, privacy is great, but I think Monero could be both things, store of value and private money.

dsc_ I know, but average people is not going to use personal wallets and personally manage the backup of their keys

they will use something easy

and not everyone is tech savvy

they will learn it when it is the difference between having funds or not

the government will not allow it, never. You can have all the world outside the system, but when you want to use it, it has to enter the system and you are detected. There is no way.

maybe your government

sorry, I mean you can have all the money, not the world xD

you are from the US? or west-EU? goodluck!

most goverments, if not all, will not allow it.

yeah lol

'outside the system' is overly dramatic

Monero is nothing more than a digital version of physical cash

thus it can be treated as such

(governance wise)

(or legal wise, whatever)

as outside the system, I mean outside the surveillance of the government

yes I know what you mean

what is the difference with physical cash?

nothing

gov cannot track physical cash

yep, that's why they are on their way to eliminate it

physical cash is 'inside the system'

right

but the US is

not necessarily 'the world is'

as 'the world', I mean the vast majority of developed world

if I step outside right now, go to a restaurant, I have 50% chance they dont take a card

maybe in Venezuela they use it, some time, because their money doesn't work. But that's an exception.

??? :P

for now, they accept cash, for now

^^

for EU, some big currency related problems are coming

people will start looking for alternatives

if it means having food or not

so 'goverment will never allow it' is nonsense

developed world or not

sure, but the problem of euro is that it's losing value

you can pay with euros without problems

what people really need is a good store of value

the rest are extras

europe has some bigger problems than just losing EUR valuation

whole industries will most likely shutdown and 'some sort of domino effect' may ensue

dsc_ btw crypto is literally the only working way for me to send money to my Russian bank account

right

kenshir0: What people need to realize is that money is not an investment. Anyway, low tx fees have been a principle of Monero from the beginning and it is very unlikely to change. If you want to convince a privacy coin to have high fees, try elsewhere.

the other working way is to take cash and physically go there

"money is not an investment" finally someone said it

money is money

it's a value equivalent

at best it should have the same value as it had a year, 10 years ago

europe problems are unrelated to allow privacy coin payments on businesses.

but not "number go up please"

you are focusing all the time on the hope that will happen some day, but I think that's not going to happen.

kenshir0: they are very related.

no easy tax-avoid mechanism will be allowed, never

and for international payments to Russia or others, that works with all crypto

and ocasional transfers allow for high fees if that gives you a good store of value properties.

why high fees? low fees are better

< kenshir0> no easy tax-avoid mechanism will be allowed, never <== like starting a business?

there are a million relatively easy ways to avoid taxes

or I'd rather say "optimize" taxes

Like not earning anything.

fully legal, mind you

high fees to allow for limited supply and keep security only with fees

normal people don't know stock market, they need a good store of value

security only with fees? That's never been done and it won't work

crypto can be store of value and money, a creation of historical importance.

sech1 yep, there are ways to "optimize" taxes, but privacy coins allow you to not declare a cent xD

that doesn't mean avoid taxes

if you don't declare anything and go buy a house, there will be questions

how do you think it all worked when only cash was around?

I don't know anyone what buys a house with cash

maybe that happens, but never see it

most people pay it through bank, with small payments each month

all very controlled

if you check bitcoin, each block earns lot of money only in fees

I asked about "when only cash was around"

not about who you know _today_

so "only fees" security is perfectly possible

how did countries collect taxes 100 years ago?

"only fees" security is perfectly possible <- that requires a mathematical proof

so far I've only seen papers about future Bitcoin instability

sech1 but what happened 100 years ago doesn't apply because they didn't have the surveillance mechanism that we have today

when the last Bitcoin is mined

nitter.net/UOLNoticias/status/1564596840997208067 <- there's one

sech1 go to any BTC block explorer, you can see it yourself

they earn more value per block with fees, that a monero block including tail emission

Block explorer is not a proof

when the base subsidy is 0 and only fees are left, it will be highly unstable

but you can compute it today

most of transactions will be done on L2 and miners will get 0 from them

with today's usage, you earn lot of value, only with fees

"value per block with fees" not fair comparison, BTC costs 150 times more

as Satoshi said, the only problem is that BTC have little usage after last BTC is mined.

it will have little usage

but that only will happen if the coin is dead

because no one wants to pay high fees

everyone will move to L2

base layer will be left without revenue

hashrate will fall

millions of ASICs shut down, but ready to attack (for the right price)

don't say I didn't warn you

this would be another long debate, but switching to a modern BFT PoS like Casper (eth2) the problem disappears forever. But anyway, look today, Ethereum has very cheap layer 2, and there is lot of TX in layer 1

it's not a debate, it's a fact

capped supply and 0 emission is not stable and vulnerable in the long run

what proof do you have that it will be different with BTC that is being today with Ethereum

base layer is used anyway

Ethereum is not capped

ethereum have several ultra-cheap layer 2

I'm talking about the layer 2 problem you are telling

it's unrelate with coin supply

d

it's related to coin emission

which will be 0 if supply is limited

miners will not have guaranteed income

and that is a problem

what I'm trying to say is that layer 1 keeps being used

so the danger you see it's not happening

It will happen: cs.princeton.edu/~arvindn/publications/mining_CCS.pdf

and the proof is that ethereum fees are ultra-high, and people keep using it

"keeps being used" is not "forever and ever" guarantee

in the long run, it will happen and I just linked you to the mathematical proof

go to an ethereum block explorer, check fees per block

you seem to not understand

even with several layer 2 working very fine (Polygon, Optimism)

layer 1 still is used, with high fees, which feed the miners

_today_ it is being used

10 years, 20 yers in the future, no one knows what market conditions will be, what usage will be

it is possible base layer transactions will be almost non-existent

there's no _guarantee_ of future income and stability for miners if emission is 0

that can totally prevented, with 100% security, switching to any modern BFT based Proof of Stake consensus

tail emission gives this mathematical guarantee

which I also propose, but that would be too much in the same conversation.

Proof of Stake? How much of total ETH emission was pre-mined? Something around 70%?

devs can literally own the network after switch to PoS

and keep owning it forever because of how PoS works

PoS = piece of shit

but here comes the best part

this is open source

community can easily fork if that happens

so whales don't do anything evil, if they know what's good for them

and if that happens, that's good news, because the massive coin destruction makes every holder richer than before

(hard fork burns the coins of attackers if they own so much)

note that using commitees, you need much more than 51% to attack the network

that's a suicide of historical proportions.

with BFT, there is absolute finality, so security is a problem of the past

we will have an example working in a few wees with Ethereum 2

(weeks)

anyway, thx for the conversation, have to go :)