its hashrate won't just disappear from the network. it may quickly reappear under new ownership

perfect opportunity for someone interested in attacking the network, to acquire new mining hardware cheap

hyc, "Mining machines at a Bitcoin farm. Image: Shutterstock"

lol

Must be a really old picture.

lol

That would explain their bankruptcy though....

:D

Meanwhile ETH is going full OFAC-compliant ...

think of the children hyc

A bitcoin adversary buying up ASICS during the bust part of the bitcoin boom-bust cycle is one of the collapse scenarios explored by Eric Budish: moneroresearch.info/index.php?actio…n=resource_RESOURCEVIEW_CORE&id=101

Maybe a stupid question but I downloaded 0.18.0.0 and did a transaction today but its currently not showing on the receivers end. Ive since downloaded 0.18.1.2 but I assume there's been no hard changes since 0.18.0.0?

I know 0.18 was the hard fork

Im assuming I had to be on 0.18 min

Correct

Thought so. Thanks

Ive noticed moving coins around transactions have been taking strangely longer than usual today

stuff that normally takes 20 minutes has been taking me 50 minutes

Could be simply bad luck wrt blocks

^ Visor

Hey, if someone downloaded the blockchain, put it in some deterministic order (does monerod do this?) and then verified it via hash. Would this be a reasonable way to distribute the blockchain?

:D

hehehe

(say on a USB to avoid downloading and using the hash to avoid worry about someone giving you a alt-chain or soemthing)

fragcula, you will not get any support from that here, but yes.

for that

fragcula: Aside from the fact it'd be outdated before u even finish copying it over to ur Usb, yeah.

fragcula, everybody here wants you to verify every tx yourself.

or verify the blockchain entirely yourself...

Mochi101: I do think it's a great shame that you can't do both. Can't import a blockchain and verify it entirely.

But that never seems to be an option, I can only assume for a good reason.

fragcula, anybody can distribute the blockchain as a file...

Nobody is stopping you.

But it wont be verified on import yes?

Someone here will ask... Who is going to verify the verified file?

centralization

To avoid centralization everybody should verify for themself.

The network wont accept an alt chain... ... ... dont quote me

I don't think it's the same as I don't have a proof mind you, but how many nodes would I need to query to prove our chains are the same?

The alt-chain will become a fork... nobody will be mining it though.

What does importing the raw blockchain from getmonero.org do? Surely it'd not be much more risky than using that

the point of a blockchain is that they're all spread out to the point that we're all checking and balancing against many nodes by virtue of just a few nodes; think of it as a group game of telephone but we're using hashsums to make sure what is being said is right

It's raw, it'll still be verified upon import.

Oh so could just use that right?

yes... but it's no quicker

Depends on your internet speed and any traffic limits

at that point I don'

I don't see why you wouldn't just host your own node at that point, fragcula *

Well the current blockchain is 140GB which is trivial to me, but not to everyone

you can always prune

fragcula, for most people verification is the bottleneck and not download speed

Mochi101: but that depends on your ISP?

also storage is cheap, it's not 1996 :)

sadly

aberration: I mean trivial in terms of data

1996 was a good year

fragcula: hm

Mochi101: I wasn't even born but I bet it was

I hadn't realise the raw file gets verified, that actually solves the issue

You missed out on when the internet was actually good and fun then aberration

I've always heard interesting stories about how people interacted when the internet first started out, like a wild west

Stories from your grandpa?

I am biased, the amount of resources we have now is exponentially unimaginable compared to the resources at that time; but I still agree with you. I think nostalgia is something that humanity will always value, the same way I'll value this time even if I have the equivalent of Google's supercomputer in my brain 50 years from now, Mochi101

lmao nah, random people on forums

my grandpa never even concieved the idea of internet, unfortunately

aberration, today the internet is ruled by gatekeepers like Alphabet and Meta... back then it was much different.

aberration: "In" your brain? That sounds horrible.

Was it better or was is it just better to be that age?

Mochi101: Tell me about it, I downloaded a windows vm and was disgusted by the amount of ads, I havent used windows in 2 years and the bloat is... it's actually quite fascinating at that point

I ask because I shun my switch, to emulate mario kart double dash which is decades old

"we're gonna force you to sign up for a microsoft account!!! but if you don't internet it's ok... WAIT YOU HAVE INTENRET??????? PLS USE FUCKING PING AND EDGE" jesus christ

is MK double dash really better than mk8 deluxe on the switch? The switch certainly has better online

ok rant over I apologize

Torr: I mean, we're saying that now, but who knows man; you can't feel pain in your brain :)

fragcula, it was more exciting... things moved so quickly. Everything seems a bit boring now... oh wow... more megapixels on my camera... wooo!

Mochi101: Would you agree the software is stagnating on the potential of hardware we have now?

No, I think there's just a lack of novel ideas.

we literally have 12 core processors the size of a playing card with decent cooling and yet... we still use to to view occasionally funny 15 second videos

Mochi101: I think one of the most novel things we have right now with tech is probably malware

weird to say but, if you think about it you have to be pretty creative, right?

aberration: I don't feel pain in many areas, still wouldn't want a computer there.

sure

Torr: oh don't get me wrong I agree with you, but I dont think the generations 4+ ahead of us will think the same

they'll be questioning our barbarism for not having one right now

aberration: you can't look at stable diffusion and think software is broadly stagnant?

crypto is exiting... I wish I was smart enough to have understood it when I first looked at it during the Bitcoin faucet days.

It's just moving in ways we didn't predict would be where innovation would go and happened behind our back

I thought it was stupid.

But it was entirely a lack of understanding of how the world around me actually worked.

fragcula: AI is one of things that can be magnified with the resources we have now, but I think what Mochi was expanding on was the general commercialization of the internet

While we were thinking our shoes would strap themselves up, AI was beating us at Go and painting anything in any style we want

I definitely agree and lament commercialization of internet

but then in internet when I was younger was a wild west

I feel like you can still find those places, they just take a bit of effort to

forums still have that niche

just abandon big 5 tech, like discord or the fucking metaverse hahahaha

I guess darknet is probably similar

oh yeah

I don't really access it though

it's really a victim of hyperbole

(despite running a tor relay for ? 5 years)

nice nice, I have an i2p router running for, i don't even know man

some vps in romania

haha mines in Hungary

good stuff, I love eastern europe; just for the VPSs though, I have no idea about politics and I dont care

just keep the server costs low and we're good

I wonder why the VPS are so prevalent in eastern europe

\/s

I was in Romania recently and loved the place,

not gonna lie sounds like a solid place to go given the value

did you go to Budapest?

Also I was impressed by my VPS approach recently. Condemn bad things, refuse to sensor

censor*

I've been to Budapest but for a stag night so kind of don't consider myself to have been in Hungary.

Do you mean Bucharest?

I have no idea but we can go with that mang let me just open firefox

haha

oh my god

im geographically retarded

my apologies

In Bucharest they have the palace of parliment

see now you know I wasn't kidding that I have no idea about eastern europe outside the mainstream

ahh

Michael Jackson stood on the balcony at a huge concert (part of a tour)

very nice, looks very clean too

In Bucharest and shouted "I love Budapest!"

So don't feel too bad :)

seriously?? LOOOOOOOOOOOL

nice factoid to know

haha, well or so the guide told us on the tour

damn we're on #monero and we're talking about a late singer's misinterpretation of geopolitical territories on the topic of tourism

very nice, i

i'll take the guide's word for it

i don't mind it at all, I just pray to the gods that we do not suffer the strike of the banhammer

aberration: haha it is *quite* off topic :)

fragcula: it's like going to a convention about coffee and discussing the national budget for welfare

it's not even remotely connected

well maybe, I bet there are some talented monero developers that reside in Romania and Hungary, maybe

Oh for sure, nation of monero devs

Maybe MoneroCon22 could be at the palace of parlement?

a-fucking-men brother, I will open up a service for plane tickets payable in XMR just for that

I will probably be a target of multiple 3 letter agencies for that but

worth it

you won't do it

you're right, I wont; but WE will

Maybe for MoneroCon they should write the codebase in a way that's actually readable and not likely full of vulnerabilities

hahaha damn, maybe we can add more ring signatures

i don't know what im talking about, but it sounds sophisticated and smart

I thought monero was amazing until I started reading the code

nice termer, pretty sure you just pitched the conference theme right there

you could created your own monero-hardened fork

fragcula that's right

write it in rust

rust will take over the linux kernel, give it 20 years

I don't know much about rust, but I do know it solves like 99, 99.9% of problems

what problems

Most people who talk about Rust are fanboys, or don't know what they're talking about

hey don't you know it's the best language ever created ever? power of C++ with the simplicity of py py

are you gonna shill nim or something

termer: there is truth to that, Rust is the most popular among coding communities; but actual employment of it in a practical matter is it's infancy

also Rust doesn't have the simplicity of python what are you talking about

im kidding man im joking

im trying to convey sarcasm in IRC it's not easy

I've heard some really stupid shit about Rust

maybe if people weren't constantly heaping praise on it without any good technical analysis then I would have thought that's a joke

but that's the kind of shit a retard rust fan would say

that's the problem lol

dude I dont even know rust, im a c++ shill

I get your frustration though

I went to a rust event at Mozilla HQ once, all I learnt was that Mozilla HQ has a fully stocked beer fridge

C++ sucks

oh come on

please

what is your IRC client tell me

Hexchat

ok give me a second

I also use software written in python

python sucks

93% C

The fact that you can write a cohesive application in something doesn't speak to the language's quality

yeah I like C a lot more

python indeed sucks I agree with you 100%

look I mean

I think one thing C++ did right over C is adding namespaces though

the sophistication is not a necessity

it's the virtue of ability

I don't like C much either but I like C++ less

it's just the fact that you can, that I admire about C++

sure it'll take forever, but who cares

it's fun

you can be "sophisticated" in most languages that aren't Go

most of my time programming either C or C++ has been on embedded devices, and using C there is a lot more comfortable

also I think you'd get a kick out of this harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/I_did_it_for_you_all

I reckon we should go back to C99

that was when I was comfortable, knew what was going on

termer: "It was only supposed to be a joke, I never thought people would take the book seriously. Anyone with half a brain can see that object-oriented programming is counter-intuitive, illogical and inefficient.." - Stroustrup

hahaha

OOP is a pain in the ass a lot of the time

Stroustrup's biggest mistake was not being a benevolent dictator

He was kind to all, and so did a disservice to everyone

only language I really liked was Nim but it's not mature enough to use for what I want to use it for

most of my time is in Java/Kotlin and C#

which is a shame but you get real work done with those

also JS

but that's because of webshit primarily

termer: what about clojure?

don't care about meme languages

termer: my approach to OOP is naive because I only really started to program 9 months ago, that's not really a lot of tenure to say where it is or it is not good; if OOP is a pain, then why do we see it so prevalent in the modern age?

What about compiling rust to WASM?

wether*

I don't know Rust, and wasm has several pain points in browsers, particularly regarding interaction with browser APIs

a lot of it has to be done through JS interop

I use Blazor at work which is C# running through wasm

whether**

I can tell you all about that

aberration OOP is nice for some things

whats that saying about OOP, you try to program a rainforest and you spend you time programming banana.peel()?

the problem is that it starts imposing artificial limitations on you because of strict interfaces and structures

You end up dealing with situation where you know for a fact that an object has a method that has these parameters and these types, but because it doesn't implement a specific interface, you can't use it where you know it's 100% possible to use

traits are a better way of reusing code than full OOP en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trait_(computer_programming)

termer: you sound like you should be a rust fanboy

I never used Rust in my life and never got to talk to someone who wasn't a fanboy or used it professionally

so I never got a good opinion on it

I'm neutral on it but it looks a bit too complicated for my liking, and dealing with the tooling to get it all setup a few years ago was so much of a pain in the ass that I decided I didn't care to continue

Rust as a lot of perks. But it has a rigid paradigm for programming it's memory model.

termer: When you mention the problems that it "doesn't implement a specific interface", I have faced those things in my own experience and have to go the lengths of using a lot of NULLs and boolean flags to substitute those things that don't fit those parameters specifically. Now that I think of I can acquiesce to the idea that this most definitely stresses a lot on large projects.

termer: I 100% agree, half of rust feels like CS injokes

aberration Things can get even worse depending on what OOP implementation you're using

I come primarily from Java land, and things are really shit once you start using generics, you run into a lot more situations where you know full well something is possible, but you're not allowed to do it because of arbitrary implementation constraints

aberration: are you learning modern C++?

Rust's whole crutch is the performance that it provides with its syntax, no? Like, we can say other high level languages may be easier to develop and by virtue we get more ease in dev time because you're not spending twenty decades figuring out how to peel a banana while creating a forest. But when it comes to the low-level, wouldn't you be willing to yield to those difficulties, personally it

feels like a necessary evil.

fragcula: Mostly baby stuff, i am ignorant as to what you're alluding to exactly by "modern c++" as the book or just C++ like the standard above 17+

Rusts crux is you write your code in a way I the compiler can verify against a solid memory model.

the most complicated software I have created was a keylogger with server communication

which I imagine is, I think that's why I am biased I keep seeing C++ as the best way for just interacting with a system, i'm very close minded in that sense

automation = python or bash, c++ = everything else

termer: Do you ever hit hardware constraints?

in what way

aberration: I had palpatation when I saw you mention using NULLs and boolean flags. and not say... std::optional

When I write C/C++ I'm working on microcontrollers, so yes I hit hardware constraints

brb

you typically do when you're working on boards with 2kb memory

null shouldn't exist

termer: as in, say your employer or a client needed you to optimize something that was functioning just as intended, but was not optimized to a degree that they would like I guess; if that makes sense

I've done optimization jobs for sites before when I was doing contracting

fragcula: forgive me my friend for I have never heard of that and I must look it up now, I might've just been writing like a schizo this whole time

but it was more in-depth than simple optimization of algorithms

it was usually database query optimization among other higher level things

fragcula: jesus christ this was EXACTLY what I needed, NOW i can jump on the NULL hate train :DD

termer: I see, I appreciate the explanation. It's something interesting to think about I guess, you can debate as a developer as to how to can maximize the resources you have at the moment and that journey is something we can all relate to. thx

most of my optimization experience is from webshit so it has a lot more to do with data access optimization

I/O is more expensive than CPU cycles

right right haha, I am still flabbergasted at how Google manages to host youtube

that's a can of worms of its very own

I've been working on and building video sites for years so I have quite a bit of insight on how those work

there's this one dude who has a bot that reposts questions from stack overflow and he has, like 1 million videos within the span of 3 years

I can imagine

and

termer: wait are you somewhat responsible for the security of it as well? Because intutively I can imagine something to be functional, but not secure

oh shit nice nice

yeah I do security

man it goes really deep, what video encodes are the best for viewing + not hoarding bandwith

ah

it's not my job description but I do a lot of that

you gotta tell me, is XSS and sql injections still a problem today?

yes

I was just dealing with that shit at work today

ofc they are but

like hmm

because people still do stupid things

are they more patched than compared to say the last 10 years?

yes

but it's still a problem

especially SQL injection

if you were to look at it relatively

damn

XSS is much less of a problem now that people are using frontend frameworks on the web more

it's much less of a problem than it used to be

sandboxing too right?

on the frontend?

the browser is already a sandbox

i see

oh eh I guess there have been cases where things have escaped beyond say the js that's being hosted on a particular webpage. something about manipulating cookies

browser JS engines sometimes have bugs that let you execute arbitrary code

there was one in chrome several months ago

but it's not typically a problem

most of the time, the exploits that are most profitable don't need to get access to your machine, it's about getting access to credentials and different things

no it was... I believe there was a legitimate issue at some point or even know of cookies being stolen

dunno if that applies to sandboxing though, ill concede to taht

wait no I am correct, not about manipulating cookies I do remember

a very serious vulnerability on the firefox browser

and ergo the tor browser

that allowed de-anonymization and RCE if I recall correctly ill see if I can find the CVE

yeah yeah

like I imagine that is a situation in which a sandbox did not achieve it's purpose as a sandbox

hm hm hm

yeah it can happen

it's certainly not impossible

march of this year

this is why I keep javascript off by default

termer: yep, i've heard these exploits are pretty professional at its core, like legit state actors and/or bigtime bug hunters ofc, not novice things by any means

amen

noscript should be mandatory

jk

the normals will never prefer security over convienience

unfortunately

SMS 2FA for days, and using your dogs favorite treat as a secret question

the 'normals' don't know they are running javashit

lmao

they don't know what it is

right, they don't even know what it is

I will use the term javashit from now on

=P

javascript is fine enough

modern JS anyway

yeah there's no doubt about it, it's pretty interesting to see what is possible without it too

I write more backend JS with node than I do frontend JS

oh man, you can not like modern JS and hate on C++

not really a big fan of the browser turning into a giant application runtime

fragcula I do like modern JS well enough

like actual JS, or typescript?

well now there's my biggest issue with JS

no types lol

I think typescript is stupid outside of the browser

if you're using typescript in the backend, you're an idiot

TypeScript is awesome if you need to use JS though

But I don't use TS most of the time

I just use WebStorm IDE and faithfully annotate everything with JSDoc type annotations

it's basically typescript at that point

but without the build step

The obvious horrible problem is running code in a browser. Then again, people run code in their 'smart fridges'...

not equivalent at all

there's nothing wrong with a little scripting in the browser

I just don't like that it has become an all-encompassing application runtime

a little scripting to do what?

make things interactive

termer: as in you want the backend to not be TS/JS or, JS only and frontend to be TS?

For example, I wrote a video site that runs without any JavaScript, BUT if you have it enabled, tag input is more fluid and it "tagifies" the tags you type into the field as2333

termer that's how it starts. Then you end up with an "all ecompasing runtime".

slippery slope fallacy

as2333: IoT will be a security apocolypse, I don't see a future that there will not be a capitulation point of there being too many points of security flaws there not being those who will take advantage of it. it's figuratively as if we all stripped out all the locks on our doors for the sake of saving 5 seconds and 10 calories

fragcula backend shouldn't be TS

termer I know it theory you could keep it under control. But that's not what has happened.

JS backend is ok enough but it gets hard to maintain at large sizes

all backend should be assembly

termer: so you expect people to write TS and then switch to JS for backend, why tho?

as2333 It's the problem of the medium, not the implementation

in* theory

the web made it really tempting

fragcula Let me put it this way

If you're starting a new backend project, and you want static typing, use a language with real static typing, not one that's just an abstraction that gets translated back into a dynamically typed scripting language

That's stupid

If you have an existing JS backend that's getting hard to maintain, then go ahead and use TS

aberration yeah - I'm waiting for people to be locked inside their houses by their 'smart locks'. Maybe at that point they'll get half a clue.

That's what I've done before

translated a 20k line JS backend project into TS to make it more maintainable

but I've never once started a new backend project in TS

I just use Kotlin with Vert.x for that

termer: I agree in principle, in practice, using the same language front and back is so convenient

only if you're doing code sharing right

(when a decent number of projects start with single person)

In practice, the only thing I typically share with backend and frontend is small util functions and DTOs

but things like DTOs can be auto-generated for different languages from a common format

as2333: not just that, but also a big open arms to let companies bend you over --> news.yahoo.com/thousands-xcel-custo…s-locked-thermostats-041655981.html

that's how protobuf works

aberration exactly. The "code is law" thing will get a whole new meaning

it will and it'll be funny

as2333: I can't wait for my smart watch to tighten automatically when it detects my blood pressure is too low or my smart smart smart headphones injecting morphine in my head if my dopamine to blood ratio is too low :))))

aberration it's going to be a brave new world...

as2333: very interesting world ahead of us man, code is law, law is enforcement, enforcement is a force, and that force is reality

poop is turd

piss is lemon water

the only difference is that it's free

aberration yeah pretty much. And not the kind of world I'm looking foward to =/

as2333: if it's any solace, 99% of those situations are by choice

as a side note of sorts, I remember java's slogan "the network is the computer" and their java applets. That originally didn't cach on. Javascript did thouth.

though

java predicted the blockchain !!1111!!!!!!1111

Is it fair to say java didn't catch on? I mean it kind of rules the education and jobs side of things

I'm sure today CS sources will have semesters in javascript lol

fragcula I mean the part about running java applets in browsers.

yeah, that was weird

well that's what javascript does now...

It is odd that Java applets for phones were a thing, then java and Dalvik are connected in a way I've never looked into lol

termer seems to be a java guy, like it's still kind of everwhere.

Java is decent

it gets things done

it's safe

It's just a memory hog

VM languages are a bit silly though

I2P uses java, therefore; I respect java.

ARM had java bytecode extensions right? That was wild

fragcula: damn I never heard of bytecode, where would this be compared to ASM and machine code?

you should probably use i2pd if you're using i2p so you don't have to run a JVM instance

aberration bytecode is basically asm for a virtual machine spec

the actual machine is not a real CPU

but it's implemented by a virtual machine runtime

JVM stands for Java Virtual Machine

it's what java runs on

It's basically an emulator for the bytecode spec

termer: I have looked at i2pd but have been lazy to not implement it XD

it does tricks to make it faster like Just In Time (JIT) compilation, which does profiling on the code as it's running, identifying what's being repeatedly run, and then compiling that bytecode into native code for the processor it's running on

fragcula en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazelle

it really is crazy

termer: ah I see, I see; intersting stuff, these are some pretty insightful insights on how java works and says about its portability

a compiler on the go, without worrying about dependencies

very nice

write-once, run anywhere was its promise and it did a fairly good job of it

but these days, that's not the reason to use it since many other languages do that without needing a VM

Java is relatively fast these days and it has a good threading model

multithreading in Java is super easy