-
kayabanerve[m]
xmrack: I'd like to start by saying I wish m0rdinals did CLSAG steg than output flooding (if it comes to that). It'd be so much more efficient and damage the publisher's privacy yet limit the outputs poisoned.
-
kayabanerve[m]
I'd follow by saying Grootle proofs or arithmetic circuit proofs are infeasible to steg.
-
kayabanerve[m]
BP had 32 bytes IIRC? BP+ doesn't? Data recovery requires redoing the proof and getting the diff?
-
kayabanerve[m]
We could get rid of almost all steg with a full chain membership proof, the Chaum-Pedersen proof, no TX extra, and strict 2-out with 20m lock time. It'd have a linear data rate of ~96b per 20m. The issue is the outputs can be treed to parallelize it and...
-
kayabanerve[m]
So while that may be enough to discourage NFT bs, it's still impossible to fully get rid of data.
-
kayabanerve[m]
Eh. May be ~300b. I don't have exact numbers in front of me. Just estimating on a few diif things
-
Wooper
hey, what is the plan with tx_extra
-
xmrack[m]
kayabanerve: I agree, the approach mordinals is taking is equivalent to a child pouting when they donβt get what they want. Thank you for giving some rough estimates, it seems like a very difficult problem without a perfect solution (besides full membership proofs)
-
Wooper
someone said that tx_extra will be limited to 256 bytes, is this true? will it fix the issue at hand?
-
Wooper
or is output spam still a porblem
-
ofrnxmr[m]
<Wooper> "hey, what is the plan with..." <- Read above lol
-
ofrnxmr[m]
1 post up snh
-
Alex|LocalMonero
Wooper: Output spam is a problem regardless of tx_extra. We need membership proofs for them to become less of a problem.
-
Wooper
read what above
-
ofrnxmr[m]
* 1 post up snh
-
Wooper
I just got here
-
ofrnxmr[m]
* 1 post up smh
-
ofrnxmr[m]
1 post
-
Wooper
there is no post above that
-
Wooper
i just got here
-
Wooper
this is IRC
-
ofrnxmr[m]
-
Wooper
Alex, do you have any links for info on membership proofs
-
Wooper
some guy on 4chan was saying membership proofs weren't possible the other day
-
Alex|LocalMonero
Well, I've never seen anyone lie on 4chan, so I guess that's that then.
-
Alex|LocalMonero
Let's wrap it up.
-
Wooper
you think someone would do that?
-
Wooper
just go on the internet and tell lies?
-
Wooper
what if devs just increase TX fees for transactions with tx_extra, by a lot.
-
Wooper
I think that might solve it
-
Wooper
like a 5 dollar fee
-
Wooper
it seems like tx_extra could probably just be used to soft-fork monero, so it's dangerous from that point of view too.
-
Alex|LocalMonero
Wooper: Search the Monero github repos, there's plenty of discussion. I don't have those links on hand and don't have the time to link it for you right now, I'm afraid.
-
Alex|LocalMonero
s/link/search/, s/it/them/
-
Wooper
alright
-
kayabanerve[m]
<xmrack[m]> "kayabanerve: I agree, the..." <- It's someone who doesn't know anything about Monero as a living body claiming to be contributing despite rejection, and as you say, like a child, continuing regardless while making a fuss.
-
Wooper
on the bright side, we can now upload the entire monero source tree to the blockchain
-
Wooper
ensuring GPL compliance
-
kayabanerve[m]
When we have a supermajority of pools no longer relaying these TXs (>1060), I'd call for a soft fork to ban them entirely tbh (if we aren't hard forking yet?
-
xmrack[m]
Iβm not sure about that, to build mordinals you at least have to understand monero a little at a fundamental level. I believe the account is run by a competent community member who has a strong opinion about tx_extra and is playing dumb
-
Wooper
kayabanerve[m] soft fork how?
-
Wooper
the best thing to do is simply prevent new ones from being created
-
kayabanerve[m]
They could be lying about not knowing of the meetings, and this could be a troll/psy-op
-
Wooper
xmrack, probably a bitccoiner or someone else
-
Wooper
I think they also own moneropunks.com
-
kayabanerve[m]
Regardless, I just want to cut them out. They're just creating issues and drama. If a soft fork achieves an effective ban on mordinals, and is feasible (it isn't currently), I'd support it.
-
Wooper
or maybe it's a parody of etherium/bitcoin
-
Wooper
kayabanerve[m]: without membership proofs, they can resort to output spam
-
Wooper
and also, isn't tx_extra a heuristic that could de-anonymize users anyways
-
Wooper
how do they plan to implement "inscriptions transfer"?
-
Wooper
oh hold on this guy released a thing on twitter.com
-
Wooper
-
Wooper
HAHAHAHA
-
xmrack[m]
Yea that thread sparked this discussion
-
Wooper
If the logic is that reducing the tx_extra to 1kb will multiply the number of tx's needed for a 50kb file, why doesn't that logic apply the other way around to current standards?
-
boog900[m]
<Wooper> "how do they plan to implement "..." <- They do it by using a bunch of known to be burnt outputs in the ring signature so your input would be the only possible real spend
-
Wooper
LOL
-
Wooper
you might as well argue that *not* setting the tx_extra to 100GB is forcing ordinal creators (who want to upload the entire wikipedia or something) to make millions of tiny 100kb tx_extras
-
kayabanerve[m]
Wooper: Even with, they can spam outputs. Full chain membership proofs just solve the privacy issues of that.
-
Wooper
boog900[m]: that is what I feared
-
Wooper
so what, now? do we just blackball all the transactions with tx_extra?
-
Wooper
Isn't there some better way to implement colored coins on monero? using burnt outputs is literally retarded
-
RavFX
Wooper: I got the same idea, Found about the blackball when reading wallet2 code and someone pointed me to some old DB, so I assume it's possible to have something that scan for all the poisoned output
-
RavFX
and automatically feed it to the node
-
Wooper
Well, if they all get blackballed it's not that bad
-
RavFX
Except for the bloat
-
Wooper
but it's still taking up blockspace that would otherwise be used by real transactions
-
Wooper
like it is pricing real transactions out of the fee market
-
Wooper
that would otherwise provide anonyminity
-
Wooper
*in theory*
-
fr33_yourself[m]
<kayabanerve[m]> "What they posted is the stupides..." <- He's come around :)
-
kayabanerve[m]
jberman: I pinged you above re: wallet2 behavior
-
kayabanerve[m]
fr33_yourself: 255 bytes, optional, var Len, remains my advocacy.
-
Wooper
I agree with 255 bytes
-
Wooper
but the real solution is just to increase the fees
-
Wooper
they can make multiple transactions
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Thats not a solution
-
Wooper
it is a soluation
-
ofrnxmr[m]
As a malicious pool, ill accepts those np
-
Wooper
it's a great soluation
-
ofrnxmr[m]
I dont care about monero, I care about moneyb
-
fr33_yourself[m]
<Alex|LocalMonero> "Output spam is a problem..." <- so even if tx_extra is deprecated these guys have still announced that they intend to use a flood attack to do mordinals?
-
Wooper
If someone wants to burn millions of monero to upload gigabytes of data, that is fine by me
-
Wooper
everyone will just prune it
-
ofrnxmr[m]
At 10xmr/kb, im fine too
-
Wooper
monero blocks ara a merkle hash, correct?
-
Wooper
:)
-
Wooper
yeah lol 10 xmr/kb
-
ofrnxmr[m]
fr33_yourself: π« π« whyy
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Please resd
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Convoy has been going on for hours
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Read the liked posts and the replies here
-
ofrnxmr[m]
(To answer your question, they plan to spam as a response to us limiting instead of blackballing)
-
ofrnxmr[m]
And say if we hard fork to limit, they will steg into outputs
-
politicalweasel[
Wooper: if the tx_extra fee is too high then they'll just go back to output spam which defeats the purpsoe
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Too high?
-
politicalweasel[
high enough to be costly, but not high enough for output spam to outcompete
-
ofrnxmr[m]
They claim will do it at current costs because were limiting
-
DanIsnotthemanBr
Need 6gb block size
-
Wooper
what if we just hard fork every 6 months to delete all the inscriptions
-
politicalweasel[
That has a lot of flaws
-
fr33_yourself[m]
ofrnxmr[m]: They will eventually run out of money from doing this by fees though right?
-
Wooper
the fees are nothing
-
ofrnxmr[m]
I think they saw jtgrassie post about within 10 years for full membership proofs, and thinks that means were 10 years away π₯Ή
-
Wooper
(currently)
-
ofrnxmr[m]
if they want to turn monero is a majority nft storage, its simply a malicious attack and there's nothing you can do other than innovate
-
politicalweasel[
IMO fees should be higher than currently, but it's hard to account for market fluctuation. One day they mights be 0.05 USD and the next, 5 USD
-
fr33_yourself[m]
So stegging their nfts into outputs isn't all that expensive? If so is it possible or feasible to increase fees for tx's with more than 'n' outputs?
-
ofrnxmr[m]
32bytes per output
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Vs 100kb like they wanted
-
ofrnxmr[m]
^ they want 100kb.
-
politicalweasel[
fr33_yourself[m]: yes we could raise fees for that, but NFT transfers are still possible with strict 2-in-2-out
-
ofrnxmr[m]
They can lick nah ballz
-
RavFX
Just put a special fee on tx_extra, like normal fee for 32 bytes per output in tx_extra, then 10xmr for first kb, 100xmr for second kb, 1000xmr for 3 kb, etc etc
-
kayabanerve[m]
ofrnxmr: I plan to bring up a soft fork once we have sufficient adoption of this patch.
-
RavFX
would help secure the network too as more miners wanting to grab spammers fees
-
politicalweasel[
RavFX: then they'll just spam smaller transactions
-
kayabanerve[m]
Also, output steg has a slightly non-trivial computational cost.
-
politicalweasel[
kayabanerve[m]: Not really. Worse case XOR, but that might not even be necessary
-
fr33_yourself[m]
politicalweasel[: But at that stage we would've done our best to prevent them right? if they spam 2 in 2 out, then we can't stop them
-
politicalweasel[
and XOR is already completely negligable
-
kayabanerve[m]
politicalweasel: You have to run bulletproofs to create them
-
Wooper
If you put a special fee on tx_extra, it may not stop future implementations of it through output spam, but it seems like the mordinals people will compromise for that. Once that becomes the mainstream implementation of NFTs, no one is going to want to make incompatible NFTs
-
RavFX
have fun with the small transactions, yes you can do it. just enforce x:2 except for coinbase. Gonna need to mess along time to accumulate enough output to be able to spam a nft over 10000 TX
-
kayabanerve[m]
We do have aggregated BPs though so it's not a notable cost in practice
-
politicalweasel[
fr33_yourself[m]: Exactly my point, no restriction can stop them
-
RavFX
considering the 20 minutes average lock
-
Wooper
the whole point of NFTs is that they have "legacy" and "history" attached to them. they won't want to keep changing the NFT implemenation
-
Wooper
see my previous message
-
politicalweasel[
kayabanerve[m]: No, you can use the subaddr ECDH keys, stealth addresses, and in certain cases the pedersen commitment
-
kayabanerve[m]
I'm dropping out of this discussion for tonight as it's largely opinionated without progress right now.
-
Wooper
so I think it can work in the long run if the goal is just "reduce output spam" and not "make arbitrary data/steg impossible"
-
kayabanerve[m]
politicalweasel: Creating an output requires proving it has a valid commitment. I don't card to debate this.
-
fr33_yourself[m]
RavFX: doesn't rav's point mean the nft bois won't effectively be able to do 2 in 2 out steg?
-
kayabanerve[m]
The encryption is trivial. The output it's placed into it requires multiple ECC ops to be created.
-
RavFX
if you want to make a NFT over 10000TX to circunvent the fees, you need to have these output available for use
-
RavFX
possible, yes, anoying as fsck, yes too
-
politicalweasel[
kayabanerve: I know you want to leave but.. that's not true. stealth addresses + ECDH keys can be any arbitrary data. Like I said the pedersen commitment can be used too in some cases
-
politicalweasel[
there's more to an output than the pedersen commitment
-
fr33_yourself[m]
RavFX: so at that point we should beat the nft bro's? basically it seems that there will need to be some serious changes to how fees are calculate based on tx_extra and number of outputs, then we should be out of the woods and in the clear right?
-
kayabanerve[m]
Adding any output, legitimate or data, requires providing a range proof for it. That range proof is non-trivial.
-
kayabanerve[m]
I'm not discussing the cost of steganography. I'm discussing the costs of adding outputs.
-
politicalweasel[
Oh i see
-
politicalweasel[
the cost is still low though
-
politicalweasel[
and extracting the data is basically free
-
Wooper
kayabanerve[m]: That's why I only use free range outputs
-
Wooper
and they're organic too!
-
RavFX
fr33_yourself[m]: Yeah, basically low fee for 32 bytes output per TX, anything over that it should use an exponential formula to crank up the fees real fast.
-
Wooper
what if there was a sidechain that implemented NFTs better
-
fr33_yourself[m]
RavFX: this idea makes pretty good sense to me. what does arcticmine think about this?
-
Wooper
and then everyone would just use the sidechain and leave the main chain alone
-
RavFX
Good question.
-
politicalweasel[
Wooper: In theory that's what Tari should do but at this rate it'll be ready.... never
-
RavFX
Yeah, A sidechain could but, but I still don't see the point of unfungible poison on a chain designed for a fungible currency
-
fr33_yourself[m]
I'm surprised there is a guy, the one who is creator of mordinals, who's best possible use of his time is to create nfts on monero which probably won't be profitable for him
-
DanIsnotthemanBr
Make him look cool
-
Wooper
he will have glory gold and glitter
-
RavFX
Make him haten by 99% of the monero community
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Wooper: No
-
politicalweasel[
I wouldn't be surprised if the mordinal dev(s) are just trying to force Monero to address tx_extra
-
RavFX
hated*
-
ofrnxmr[m]
He has the worst nfts out there
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Meanwhile WE have the best ones
-
Wooper
yeah the NFTs are shit
-
fr33_yourself[m]
I'm just surprised there is a guy who thought. Hm this seems like a good idea and the best possible use of my time and money
-
Wooper
these shitty pixel heads
-
Wooper
I actually did make an NFT, it's pretty good
-
-
RavFX
I have the best one but I stopped production, wast of XMR dust lol
-
ofrnxmr[m]
This is how we do it.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
#Amateur
-
DanIsnotthemanBr
Dns-blacklist nft
-
ofrnxmr[m]
^^^
-
Wooper
the NFTs are being produced at an exponential rate
-
Wooper
I think 1000 were made just today
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Ill blacklist shitty mining pool's from my node lol
-
Wooper
and they are constantly getting worse
-
ofrnxmr[m]
And priority node hashvault (they'll update) so it gets sent to p2pool
-
Wooper
the stupidest part of all of this is that you don't even need to store anything on-chain in order to have NFTs
-
fr33_yourself[m]
I think they will die out eventually, but I could be wrong
-
RavFX
NFT are by default really low end except some very rare exception. And for reason the good one are almost free
-
Wooper
you can literally have a signed certificate that just points to a transaction output
-
Wooper
boom, NFT
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Its just trying to use range proofed data storage.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Idiocy
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Use ipft or torrents ya fkn noob
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Imagine cresting monero blockchain FOR nfts.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Lmao
-
DanIsnotthemanBr
Can we roll back chain k thx bye
-
Wooper
yeah, IPFS
-
RavFX
YEah, even NFS scams on ETH use ipfs link.... That would save so much space lol
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Might as well scrap all of the ineffeciencies, rings, etc
-
politicalweasel[
When should the next patch be released? I'm so ready to download it and know I'm cockblocking the mordinal cucks
-
Wooper
oh I have a great idea
-
RavFX
maybe we should not give them idea, they gonna continue to spam out chain with IPFS link once we limit tx_extra
-
DanIsnotthemanBr
Teue
-
DanIsnotthemanBr
* Truw
-
Wooper
I will double spend by sending kraken a massive amount in an NFT, and when the community rolls the transactions back I will have double spent.
-
Wooper
kidding of course
-
DanIsnotthemanBr
Did i hear p2pool use tx_extra?
-
fr33_yourself[m]
Wooper: infinite money glitch discovered mar 24 2023
-
fr33_yourself[m]
how quickly would your bank acc get frozen though lol
-
RavFX
Someone could try to attack 0 confirmations site like that. If the shit hit the mempool but is never mined.
-
politicalweasel[
0-conf should only be used for small amounts anyway'
-
RavFX
But I think all the fixes will block them before it go in mempool
-
fr33_yourself[m]
RavFX: This is a good point
-
Wooper
You accept 0-conf in the same way you accept a cash payment
-
Wooper
if they try to double spend, you throwing hands
-
Wooper
good for in-person payments
-
fr33_yourself[m]
man m0rdinals are really making fungibility go bye bye aren't they
-
politicalweasel[
not really
-
politicalweasel[
mordinals are an attack, but not a very successful one
-
RavFX
not necessarly, if you blackball all the poisoned tx
-
politicalweasel[
especially after the patch is released
-
DanIsnotthemanBr
With shitty pics
-
Wooper
this is my mordinal
-
Wooper
-
Wooper
it's pretty good I think
-
fr33_yourself[m]
what if you receive a m0rdinal on accident though and then want to spend it, but the miner won't forward the tx
-
politicalweasel[
fr33_yourself[m]: wdym
-
RavFX
Then youre stuck with it, but at the end it's monero so other people won't know you received it
-
politicalweasel[
oh i see nvm
-
Wooper
hey wait I have an idea
-
RavFX
with defeat all the purpose of that scam
-
Wooper
for how you can spend mordinals without output spamming
-
Wooper
what if, you just say the output that has the ordinal is just the one that is the biggest number
-
fr33_yourself[m]
what if miner's stop mining tx's with m0rdinals but you accidentally received one? I guess the problem with this situation is logically if the miner's already ofac sanctioned the mordinal then you couldn't have received it in the first place
-
Wooper
so you have to calculate 2^ringsize transactions on average
-
Wooper
think about it
-
Wooper
it's genius
-
RavFX[m]
OFAC sanctionned the m0rdinal π
-
Wooper
no wait
-
Wooper
I like RavFX's train of thought here
-
Wooper
what if we declare mordinals are a security
-
Wooper
so the SEC regulates them
-
fr33_yourself[m]
not good train of though
-
Wooper
holy crap, they just added 400 in the last hour
-
fr33_yourself[m]
best we can do is make it difficult for these guys to use monero for nfts instead of as currency
-
Wooper
the rate of mordinal production must be rivaling real transactions
-
fr33_yourself[m]
so does this mean we need to make an emergency move of some sort?
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Wooper: Theyre mad
-
ofrnxmr[m]
But they can lick mah ballz
-
politicalweasel[
step 1 is capping tx_extra size, step 2 is enforcing some statistical check on decoy age, step 3 is a more long-term tx_extra change @ next hard fork
-
politicalweasel[
(step 2 would break their transfer system)
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Dont know where those steps came from but lol
-
fr33_yourself[m]
i like the above ^^^ the question is when does step 1 happen?
-
ofrnxmr[m]
I guess I mean step 2
-
Wooper
politicalweasel they can probably bypass any decoy age limitation
-
Wooper
... right?
-
politicalweasel[
Maybe, but they choose decoys in a way that proves the NFT was the real transfer. That becomes extremely hard/impossible with step 2
-
ofrnxmr[m]
They're sending about 25-50kb/block
-
ofrnxmr[m]
7kb of garbage
-
politicalweasel[
50kb per block = 13gb per year. If mords are patched soon then the total damage shouldn't be too bad
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Fkn amateurs. At least upload something nice
-
politicalweasel[
(so let's do that, asap)
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Lol
-
ofrnxmr[m]
50kb per block is not trying
-
ofrnxmr[m]
I can do 300kb/block if u want
-
politicalweasel[
Somehow even worse than most NFTs
-
Wooper
I think that if you institute some regulation on tx_extra, that the NFT people would appreciate that
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Even worse than their old ones
-
RavFX
Yeah, I did see a small increase in block size since the poison is available. Not too much so far but I know how that can go out of control easily
-
Wooper
part of what makes NFTs valuable is the high entry cost
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Like they found the stuff on their windows 95 pc
-
plowsof11
morbinals dev still thinks the patch will allow 1kb images?
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Yea
-
plowsof11
its over
-
plowsof11
amateurs
-
RavFX
Yeah, I just looked at mordinal.org, the new batchs are so repetitive (like the same in loop) and ugly
-
ofrnxmr[m]
plowsof11: Super amateurs
-
Wooper
you can fit a lot of pixel art in 1MB
-
plowsof11
1. can't even bloat the chain 2. not even good content
-
Wooper
the stupid pixel heads are like 400 bytes
-
politicalweasel[
so theyre just spamming because theyre angry now, right?
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Yes
-
RavFX
Probably
-
fr33_yourself[m]
plowsof11: when does the patch go live?
-
Trojanvolta[m]
Hey guys who wants to buy pot with monero ?
-
RavFX
They probably tought it would get popular or something and pump so they can dump or something
-
plowsof11
when luigi1111 has time for merges it can go live asap xD
-
politicalweasel[
fr33_yourself[m]: it's relay-level so just as node adopt it
-
politicalweasel[
Trojanvolta: FED
-
ofrnxmr[m]
fr33_yourself[m]: This week
-
ofrnxmr[m]
You can build and run it now
-
Wooper
I think they realized you can spam at a much higher rate if you divide your monero into multiple coins
-
plowsof11
oh no ^^^^
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Trojanvolta[m]: Me
-
RavFX
Don't give them ideas lol
-
Trojanvolta[m]
politicalweasel[: Fed = federated egocentric dog
-
Wooper
instead of using a single coin and waiting 10 mins every time
-
plowsof11
its becoming sentient
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Wooper
-
Wooper
ye?
-
Trojanvolta[m]
i gotcha grass until I bake my flass
-
fr33_yourself[m]
politicalweasel[: so it's a point release or something?
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Brb while I get the dictionary so I can read it out loud for everyone
-
ofrnxmr[m]
No need to tell stupid people that a comes before B
-
plowsof11
yes a point release
-
RavFX
My nodes are already updated since a while
-
plowsof11
traitor!!
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Amateurs
-
fr33_yourself[m]
and it is already live?
-
fr33_yourself[m]
people just need to update their nodes and no more m0rbinals
-
RavFX
just merge the pull request and compule
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Mining pools*
-
RavFX
compile*
-
nioc
I will continue not to comment
-
Wooper
I don't see a commit
-
Wooper
is this the monero repo?
-
RavFX[m]
-
RavFX
I guess PR8758 should not be merged until real solution to block the poison is found
-
DanIsnotthemanBr
Tx_extra research group
-
RavFX
The only good thing about that, everyone know about tx_extra now.. lol
-
DanIsnotthemanBr
And monero
-
DanIsnotthemanBr
Winrar
-
DanIsnotthemanBr
So will nfts be added as an attack vector?
-
RavFX
More like tx_extra poisoning I guess, because it's not only limited to nft. Technically you want all TX to look the same. With is not the case when you have stuff in tx_extra
-
spacekitty420[m4
yall mofos up in this bitch literally so retarded or what, like, yall acting like no one ever had malicious intents regarding the monero blockchain... (full message at <
libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/do…de1a9f3ea1d3dc60a24bbd589614064a532>)
-
fr33_yourself[m]
dang you seem pretty mad bro
-
RavFX
Who would not be mad when idiots are poisoning you're precious blockchain
-
fr33_yourself[m]
agree though. I'm still with alex from local monero. Nuke tx_extra or restrict it as much as possible. We can't prevent steg and floods, only by not cooperating with poor services built around monero
-
fr33_yourself[m]
what if we all flood the chain at the same time to counter a single person's output flood hehe
-
RavFX
Would do nothing good, except adding more poison
-
kayabanerve[m]
What if no one floods the chain and we just adopt the open patch, please .-.
-
fr33_yourself[m]
If anyone has better ideas then let me know: But (1) Limit or kill tx_extra (2) Increase fees (3) Don't use services that aren't necessary for transactions this seems like all we can do
-
RavFX
If I look in the explorer, it feel like there is easily 25 to 50% of the TX that are poison
-
spackle_xmr[m]
Hopefully people can take some comfort from the recent ring size increase.
-
fr33_yourself[m]
> <@spacekitty420:matrix.org> yall mofos up in this bitch literally so retarded or what, like, yall acting like no one ever had malicious intents regarding the monero blockchain... (full message at <
libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/do…1e043ac078c99efe4e97ed01edfdb928885>)
-
-
spacekitty420[m4
fr33_yourself[m]: nah, as it was discussed there would apparently be other attack vectors if they wanted to
-
ofrnxmr[m]
All of those 1/2 that arent 1.5kb are nfts
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Satisfied? No. Thats 1 step
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Far from the goal of fully fungible tx on moneo
-
spacekitty420[m4
* wanted to, would be a start tho, putting the foot down type of thing being liek "fuck dem nft"
-
fr33_yourself[m]
<spacekitty420[m4> "nah, as it was discussed there..." <- I just don't think we will get the output/steg security until seraphis with larger ring set or complete membership proof if possible
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Without putting any real thought into it, and I already see an issue (inputs, sizes (padding?), distribution)
-
ofrnxmr[m]
but if outputs were standardized to 2/4/8/16 you could make rings use an equal distribution of easy as decoys. Four decoys with 2 outputs, four with 4 etc.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Because, say, exchanges started making up the majority of the volume, your rings would be polluted with 16 out tx.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Most economically meaningful transactions will have 2out (1 receiver + change or dummy).
-
ofrnxmr[m]
As it is you can already pretty much eliminate any non 2 out as the real spend
-
spacekitty420[m4
right but seraphis best case scenario still 2 year away and for some reason yall just want a single hard fork before it while they used to be so much more frequent in the past
-
spacekitty420[m4
gotta normalize frequent hard forks again imo :P
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Seraphis 2 years away is a random number
-
spacekitty420[m4
it is, hence why "best case scenario"
-
ofrnxmr[m]
No reason it couldnt be 6 months away if we had a magic team
-
fr33_yourself[m]
> <@spacekitty420:matrix.org> right but seraphis best case scenario still 2 year away and for some reason yall just want a single hard fork before it while they used to be so much more frequent in the past
-
fr33_yourself[m]
> gotta normalize frequent hard forks again imo :P
-
fr33_yourself[m]
why would one hardfork pre-seraphis be bad
-
spacekitty420[m4
like... haveno was supposed to be end of 2021, we in 2023
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Please stop using reply funcrmtion
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Haveno ccs was a scam tho
-
fr33_yourself[m]
ok i will not use it anymore. ALso haveno is scam
-
fr33_yourself[m]
lol me ofrnxmr are spirit brothers
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Haveno isnt a scam anymore imo. But ccs was
-
spackle_xmr[m]
On the topic of counter-attack spam, I think it could be done in a way that enforces some baseline anonymity. It is obviously not an ideal solution, and I believe there are multiple better options to consider for anyone who wants the project to actively respond. I'm sure it has been discussed before.
-
spacekitty420[m4
fr33_yourself: because if there's just a single hard fork then it'll be awhile still so could pack a bunch of other stuff in it, am saying more HF would be better
-
RavFX
They should just put an anouncement, hard fork 15 april, prepare and deal with it
-
spacekitty420[m4
* in it (and some other stuff might be missing as well and will ahve to wait the seraphis one), am
-
ofrnxmr[m]
April 15 isnt enough time to fork testnet and stagenet
-
RavFX
Or make it one week away, I would not mind
-
RavFX
Hmm, yeah, better testing the patches
-
fr33_yourself[m]
i thought the current fix of miner relays not relaying m0rbinal is sufficient to neutralize him
-
fr33_yourself[m]
so if m0rb is done from here on, then what's the big worry
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Only if mining pools update
-
ofrnxmr[m]
A hard fork forces them to choose. Monero for tx, or monero for nft fees
-
RavFX
Not really, it have to be installed and if not all pool install it or miners not using pool is not installing it... Without a HF will will still be possible to push the poison on the blockchain
-
spacekitty420[m4
ofrnxmr[m]: (on no i using the reply function so irc boomers gonna be angy... :derp:), how about if someone renting a bunch of vps and mine those, if no hard fork that aint really solving it, right?
-
kayabanerve[m]
spacekitty420: this is why the only eta for serai is 22020 π
-
fr33_yourself[m]
i still don't see the problem. I mean a hardfork in may or smthing wouldnt be so bad. but i don't see the rush anymore
-
kayabanerve[m]
anything sooner is just quality by hard work.
-
kayabanerve[m]
We can't hard fork on short notice. We could soft fork by adoption. I'm unsure the prior discussions over the year on the idea of soft forking.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
If 2miners txpool is 600mb, they might decide to update
-
fr33_yourself[m]
m0rb guy should be neutralized for now, so i think we have some time
-
DanIsnotthemanBr
Can i use tx_extra to backup my data?
-
RavFX
M0rb guy still pumping them at full power
-
RavFX
Yes, please backup you're seed on tx_extra
-
DanIsnotthemanBr
Brb
-
fr33_yourself[m]
even if m0rb guy is still pumping them out like the fed buying underwater treasuries, it's all for naught once the mining pools update
-
Alex|LocalMonero
DanIsnotthemanBr: I recommend that you also backup the same data into CLSAG and outputs to ensure redundancy. You know if you have 1 backup you have no backups.
-
fr33_yourself[m]
let him pump the jpgs
-
DanIsnotthemanBr
Iβll split passphrase into multiple tx dont tell anyone
-
CopenhagenBram[m
brb telling everyone
-
CopenhagenBram[m
/s
-
spacekitty420[m4
oh hey u seen that tv show "Copenhagen Cowboy"? was pretty good o.o
-
CopenhagenBram[m
lol no
-
spacekitty420[m4
aw x)
-
aiena
My moenro synced upto ~92% pretty fast now it taking forver to sync a few blocks. Is that normal
-
spackle_xmr[m]
RE: mordinals, I think it is helpful to keep in mind that there are many MANY things the Monero project can do to respond. fr33_yourself mentioned restricting tx_extra, increasing consensus fees, and avoiding those services. Off the top of my head I'll add:... (full message at <
libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/do…eba43cb6e62e804d29df51e23b13f69957d>)
-
kayabanerve[m]
It's a bad idea because it increases the retry rate, which damages privacy, and requires downloading the full bloated TX to determine not to use it.
-
spackle_xmr[m]
I'm sure people can add to that list quickly with a bit of contemplation.
-
spackle_xmr[m]
I have full faith and confidence in the Monero project, and I don't believe there is any need to panic.
-
spacekitty420[m4
aiena: it does slow toward the end usually yas, so normal
-
aiena
ok
-
spackle_xmr[m]
Ahh, perhaps I misunderstood.
-
aiena
spacekitty420[m4, can I improve performace in any way with so cli params? I have prune-blockchain but nothing else.
-
fr33_yourself[m]
spackle, only option 1 has merit imo
-
aiena
*some
-
spacekitty420[m4
aiena: not sure, running on ssd rather than hdd is the only thing i can think of tbh
-
fr33_yourself[m]
halting dynamic blocks outright and going fixed block is very very antithetical to monero
-
aiena
OK I'm already on an SSD
-
spackle_xmr[m]
Right. I'm not saying these are all good solutions, I am saying they are possible.
-
spackle_xmr[m]
There are many levers to pull, and if privacy is genuinely being threatened any number of things can be considered to protect it.
-
DanIsnotthemanBr
Make sure you have firewall open too
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Enter sync_info into the node to see where its at
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Your peers, your queue, your current download speed etc
-
aiena
ofrnxmr[m], says Synced 2650672/2849490 (93%, 198818 left, 1% of total synced, estimated 9.1 days left)
-
aiena
not sure how to enter sync_info into the node - do I run a separe command calling monerod?
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Youb just type it into the node
-
aiena
ok there is a stdin at the stdout
-
aiena
it worked
-
aiena
says 12 peers bu 3 synchronising the rest on standby
-
xmrfn[m]
IT'S COMING!! IT'S ALMOST HERE! :D
-
xmrfn[m]
-
RavFX
Hope it get propaged as fast as posible, after the release. The infection is quite bad when you look at the explorer
-
xmrfn[m]
My itchy trigger finger is waiting to compile that reproducible build
-
rbrunner
If we speculate what the Mordinals team will do, can do, can't do, IMHO we should not forget that making those mordinals is not an end in itself
-
rbrunner
It's a cash grab, if you ask me, plain and simple. And as soon as it becomes clear that cash won't flow in interesting quantities, this will come crashing down like a house of cards
-
sech1
even after the point release, the restriction won't really kick in for months
-
sech1
because pools like 2miners will keep running an old node
-
rbrunner
Maybe it won't have to. The psychological signal may already have an effect. The signal of an anti-NFT stance, and able and ready to act
-
rbrunner
We will see. As I try to argue here, it's mostly not a technical problem.
-
sech1
well, Bitcoin mempool is still at 1 GB now
-
sech1
this thing is not going away
-
sech1
234 blocks backlog there
-
RavFX
Are people actually buying the one on BTC?
-
rbrunner
Yes, and Bitcoin is probably almost powerless to do anything against it at short and middle term. We are.
-
rbrunner
Er, we are not, as in "not powerless"
-
sech1
They can form miner 51% cabal and stop mining NFTs :D
-
rbrunner
I was trying to sketch how code would look to stitch together an NFT from 10 transactions with 1 KB parts each, and I think that would be a PITA to code.
-
sech1
I bet maxis will even cheer to it
-
RavFX
So far until every pools/miners upgrade, that poison will just stay in the mempool and take longer to get mined. That will remove the insta-satisfaction from the spammers from having them instamined
-
sech1
Transactions are purged from mempool after 3 days
-
sech1
so after some point they won't get mined
-
sech1
if the remaining "old" hashrate can't mine a block in 3 days
-
RavFX
also you would need some script to produce the required output to make theses 10 transactions (or wait 20 minutes for each chunks)
-
sech1
persistent NFT spammes can submit them again of course
-
sech1
but they'll need a lot of patience
-
rbrunner
We only have to make it implausible that the mordinals team will become millionaires with this, if you ask me.
-
RavFX
Oh sure, if they can't extract money from this, they will eventually stop to lost time and spend (more) money on that.
-
rbrunner
Remember, getting those "NFTs" mined and into the chain is not a goal in itself. They don't have won if we mine the crap. Money is the goal.
-
sech1
where's the money if they haven't even started to monetize? All their tools are free
-
rbrunner
NFT trading of course.
-
rbrunner
And taking a cut from that.
-
sech1
no trading yet
-
rbrunner
Gatekeeper-wise
-
rbrunner
Yes of course not yet. But without that the whole scheme makes zero sense.
-
sech1
they can make money from trading even if they can't mine new NFTs anymore
-
sech1
it will just make existing NFTs even more "rarer"
-
rbrunner
But you need to get people to trade. Lots of people. Greedy people. And those will be hard to come by if we make an unfriendly environment.
-
sech1
so they'll probably spam every NFT monkey jpeg in existence while they can
-
DanIsnotthemanBr
hmmm
-
spackle_xmr[m]
One possibly significant point on that front: Building the mordinals wallet was not possible at the initial release. It would throw errors.
-
spackle_xmr[m]
In that same time frame the 'rarest' Monero punks were minted. Effectively pre-mined.
-
RavFX
Yeah, that would be why they are spaming non stop instead of working on patch to be able to transfer them
-
spackle_xmr[m]
They are working on transfers. My understanding is that the release enabling transfers will be within a few days.
-
rbrunner
We can't be sure who really uploaded those 100 pet rocks stolen from the Ethereum chain. May well be a third party smelling money.
-
rbrunner
Well, a marketplace will be needed as well.
-
rbrunner
So people can find each other.
-
rbrunner
Or those "lame creatures". I mean, the URL gives it away, already, no? "
fluff.MONEY"
-
RavFX
yeah, fsck there ugly too
-
rbrunner
Don't forget that the whole NFT craze is already solidly on the wane, with some exception like BTC ordinals. Volume crashed to 1% of all-time high volume e.g. on OpenSeas or how that's called.
-
RavFX
spammed non stop, without much variation, many of the same... Like they just want to spam as much as possible for now
-
RavFX
most NFT went like -99% right?
-
rbrunner
They must mint of course the complete "collection"
-
rbrunner
Yeah, think so. The wider thing crashed already.
-
RavFX
Yeah, but when the collection have many of the same identical lame shit
-
rbrunner
Looks like a bug somewhere, yes.
-
sech1
to me, it's all shit
-
sech1
even if not identical
-
rbrunner
:)
-
RavFX
Yeah, it's all shit, not arguing on that
-
rbrunner
You are solidly not the audience :)
-
sech1
"identical lame shit" hey, maybe they invented fungible NFTs
-
RavFX
lol
-
rbrunner
I mean, if you have to choose a target as unattractive and hostile as Monero because everything else is already taken, that's hard
-
rbrunner
(for wanna-get-richs)
-
rbrunner
I mean, a wallet that you have to self-compile? Come on, what kind of offer is that lol
-
rbrunner
That could well be a first in the wild wild world of NFTs :)
-
RavFX
Maybe, eventually they will provide procompiled wallet and some peoples will get there keys leaked, maybe that's how they gonna make money lol
-
rbrunner
I am tempted to offer that precompiled wallet complete with backdoor myself, after I read their latest Twitter thread
-
rbrunner
where they more or less declared themselves masters of Monero - we have to ask them now before any change
-
rbrunner
"for the love of God" even
-
rbrunner
And their whole "Nice coin you have there" attitude
-
RavFX
Maybe they just know they are going to lose the war. It's NFT crap anyway, Is there even people still interrested in that?
-
RavFX
Can the fiels for output(s) be make fixed size or something?
-
RavFX
In the event that they push there poison using outputs
-
DanIsnotthemanBr
does anything or any service beside cartoon pics use tx_extra?
-
sech1
THORChain is trying to do something, but they didn't release it yet
-
sech1
although it's been years since they announced it
-
sech1
they wanted to have trade IDs or something like this in tx_extra
-
DanIsnotthemanBr
I thought i heard p2p pool use it.
-
DanIsnotthemanBr
On monerotalk with the creator
-
sech1
lol
-
sech1
All miners/pools use it, this is where they put extra_nonce field
-
DanIsnotthemanBr
So will have limit the size until there is a solution?
-
philkode
spackle_xmr[m]: βeffectively pre-minedβ
-
philkode
Interesting echoβs of the early days of bitmonero there
-
aiena
Is the --sync-pruned-blocks safe to use in conjunction with --prune_blockchain
-
aiena
or are there caveats to that flag
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Yes
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Safe
-
orion_midast[m]
Hey, I hope everyone is having a nice day
-
eudaimon36[m]
Trying to use the QR code grab for the first time on Ubuntu GUI--nothing when I click it. Might I need to enable certain Ubuntu settings to use?
-
eudaimon36[m]
Also, FYI: the camera works fine with two other applications I use regularly (i.e., I seem to have it set up properly)
-
aiena
sometimes i get this message from sync on monerod 'W No incoming connections - check firewalls/routers allow port 18080' what does it mean?
-
xfedex[m]
It means that your node cannot be accessed by other nodes
-
xfedex[m]
it's normal, it happens on most connections (usually NAT "blocks" incoming ipv4 requests)
-
aiena
k
-
selsta
eudaimon36[m]: it's not a camera, it should grab the qr code from your screen
-
eudaimon36[m]
it takes a screenshot?
-
ofrnxmr[m]
<aiena> "k" <- If youre behind a router, you need to logon to your router and do port forwarding
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Forward port 18080 to the local IP address of the host that has the node (example 192.168.0.75) on port 18080.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
If you also have a firewall on the host you'll need to allow incoming connections on port 18080
-
xmrlover[m]
> <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> Forward port 18080 to the local IP address of the host that has the node (example 192.168.0.75) on port 18080.
-
xmrlover[m]
>
-
xmrlover[m]
> If you also have a firewall on the host you'll need to allow incoming connections on port 18080
-
xmrlover[m]
Thank you i love you for your help soon enough I'll be able to help the network π
-
spacekitty420[m4
rbrunner: idk if u being naive af saying they want to make monies selling the pixelly pics but it's clearly and so obviously not about that...
-
ofrnxmr[m]
-
ofrnxmr[m]
But that goes back to, why would you use turn a 1kb image into 2kb of storage? Or 32bytes?
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Why bulletproof and decoy your nfts?
-
LikWidChz
Hiya.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Imagine storing all of your music in encrypted WAV
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Howdy LikWidChz:
-
LikWidChz
So I just kinda started to think about mining XMR this morning and doing some benchmarks are there any other linux mining apps with source code that I can compile to mine this on ARM?
-
LikWidChz
besides XMRIG.
-
RavFX
You can't use xmrig because you have a 32bits arm or?
-
LikWidChz
well I am using XMRIG now in debian on arm.
-
LikWidChz
The hashrate seems .... I dont know I get a hashrate LOL, but I just... it seems slow ish
-
LikWidChz
ugh and I think its 64bit debian if I recal , these are Orange Pi 5's.
-
RavFX
Yeah, it have to be 64bits.
-
RavFX
I don't expect these kind of SBC to have stellar hashrates
-
LikWidChz
well true true and true.. but its 8 core and they are big little 4 large cores and 4 anti large cores
-
LikWidChz
I get ~95Khs a sec on XMG coin. there is an ARM optimized miner for it which is great.
-
LikWidChz
Linux OrangePi12 5.10.110-rockchip-rk3588 #1.1.2 SMP Fri Feb 17 10:08:57 CST 2023 aarch64 GNU/Linux
-
RavFX
You get about 400H/s?
-
LikWidChz
its ~750Khs
-
LikWidChz
sorry 750h/s
-
RavFX
Oh, than it's not bad for that king of hardware
-
LikWidChz
760 h/s actually.
-
RavFX
Sound like it's what you should get
-
LikWidChz
okay well I just wanted to run it by some experts to see if Im just off base in my expectations ..
-
LikWidChz
... I have 15 of these heh.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Sounds good
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Use xmrig-proxy to pool your hashrates together
-
LikWidChz
yeah I also have a 5950x that ill be using too as my main machine I built a bit over a year ago.
-
LikWidChz
Oh reeely.. thats a new one for me ofrnxmr[m]
-
LikWidChz
all this crypto stuff is still "work in progress as I learn"..
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Same setup as xmrig.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Then you point xmrig on each device to xmrigproxy (the pool for each xmrig would be lanIPofXMRIGproxy:3333)
-
LikWidChz
is there a benefit to doing that??
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Yes
-
LikWidChz
oh okay humor me, whats it do for me compared to all seperate instances?
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Separate instances ddos the pool
-
LikWidChz
ahh so thats no bueno.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Xmrig proxy makes one connection to the pool and then splits the job among the miners connected to it
-
LikWidChz
that sounds great, the xmrig proxy just has to be running on a single device, is it just CLI based setup? or a seperate daemon or something running or what?
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Say each miner finds a share every 30 seconds. Thats 15 submissions every 30 seconds at a low difficulty
-
ofrnxmr[m]
LikWidChz: CLI based, can be run on the same device as one if the xmrigs
-
ofrnxmr[m]
-
LikWidChz
I pasted that in my notes ahh good deal! thank you
-
LikWidChz
ill have to putz around with it, mainly I would like a method to check the status of each miner via the web but if I just know what the hashrate is of one device and I multiple that by 15... pretty easy to see if one of them went off to lunch or something if the hashrate drops
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Xmrig proxy will tell you the combined hr
-
LikWidChz
Right now I'm using this app called mRemoteNG that allows me to keep 15 ssh sessions open within one app.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
And the status of each connected miner
-
LikWidChz
cheezy but ... you know.
-
LikWidChz
AHH okay
-
LikWidChz
I guess are the rewards better? or literally just the same
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Press `W` in xmrig proxy to view the "workers"
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Depends who you ask π
-
LikWidChz
lol
-
LikWidChz
also I find that using IRC weeds out the idiots I chat with.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
If you are targetting 30s/share, with 15 devices, each device with hash for longer before submitting a low quality share
-
LikWidChz
I gotta have you break that comment down heh
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Using the pooled miners will trick the mining pool into sending higher difficulty shares
-
LikWidChz
oh I have 15 slow machines it will think its a single fast machine?
-
LikWidChz
imgur.com/a/VoCp7Jr not sure if this helps or not
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Instead of each miner getting 10k difficulty to average accepted shares every 30s, xmrig proxy will be given 150k (dont trust my math)
-
LikWidChz
sure I get the jist of it.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Are you using a config file or flags when running xmrig
-
LikWidChz
currently right now I actually have 12 Orange Pi's but the other 3 are on order since the case deal I built holds 15... but I was and have been brainstorming mining a CPU based coin with these and sticking ONLY with CPU based coins and not sure why I was thinking mining some lesser known coins vs just one that is within the top 100 coins to mine.
-
LikWidChz
oh well its testing now so I really only have xmrig running on a single PI with a ugly looking CLI syntax which I prefer that vs a config.
-
LikWidChz
Mainly I was just shoping around for what to mine, one of those "set it and forget it" at some point make it rain nickles or something....
-
ofrnxmr[m]
LikWidChz: Config is nice
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Because you can edit them without restarting xmrig
-
LikWidChz
oh and it just reloads it constantly?
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Reloads when it detects a change
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Also, by using xmrig proxy, you only have 1 config that you need to edit
-
LikWidChz
ahhh well someone was thinking when they created it. Unlike most microsoft products
-
ofrnxmr[m]
The rest can just stay pointed at the pointed
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Pointed at the proxy*
-
LikWidChz
ahhh well again that is good. I'll have to try this with two devices, still mining XMG coin though for now just figuring out when to switch over.
-
LikWidChz
will I have some issue with 15 slow devices and 1 stupid fast one?
-
ofrnxmr[m]
XMG?
-
ofrnxmr[m]
You mean XMR?
-
ofrnxmr[m]
LikWidChz: Personally I like to separate them
-
LikWidChz
no I mean MagiCoin is what im mining now and planning on switching them all over to XMR"Monero"
-
LikWidChz
put all 15 in one group then just mine seperately with the main machine?
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Yeah. Switch them to monero and come back in a few months to check your balance
-
LikWidChz
32 cents USD.
-
LikWidChz
lol
-
ofrnxmr[m]
LikWidChz: Yup
-
LikWidChz
so sad.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
LikWidChz: For now. I solo.
-
LikWidChz
you hit any blocks?
-
ofrnxmr[m]
About 8 months ago yep
-
LikWidChz
just 1? total
-
ofrnxmr[m]
After like 2 weeks if solo
-
RavFX
Any recommendation for shitcoin (Now that winter is officially gone, I have to ramp up my electricity consumption because the batteries get full at 12:30 lol)
-
RavFX
I put the GPU on xmrig for now but it's Hr like like... half of one CPU core lol
-
ofrnxmr[m]
LikWidChz: I mine on android
-
LikWidChz
ahh like tablets or what
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Dont have much hr
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Tablet is my node, an android TV and a couple older phones
-
LikWidChz
maybe thats what I should do, mine XMR as solo on all 15 of these things since I would almost be better to try solo mining vs non.
-
LikWidChz
ahh you just run like UserLand and debian in them or something?
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Termux
-
LikWidChz
ahh gotcha, its probably all the same shit.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Yup
-
merope
What's the power consumption at the wall for each one of those Pis?
-
LikWidChz
that is an interesting idea, ill have to consider solo mining since alone these devices wont do anything steller.
-
LikWidChz
merope, ehh not quite sure, but I think someone said ~5-7 watts full load
-
merope
Don't mine solo unless you have at least >200 kH/s
-
LikWidChz
each one of these does 750hs and I have 12 * soon to be 15.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Endors point is solo mining doesnt send antytjing to the network unless you find a block
-
merope
^
-
LikWidChz
I could solo mine with my 5950x
-
ofrnxmr[m]
But... finding a block when youre on a pool just donates your money to rich folks
-
ofrnxmr[m]
So. I solo.
-
LikWidChz
and hopefully winner winner burrito dinner.
-
merope
You'd need 10 of those ryzens to solo mine reliably
-
great_taste
make your own pool
-
LikWidChz
heh
-
merope
If you don't want to pay pool fees, there's p2pool (decentralized pool)
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Then you get coopted by a large miner.
-
LikWidChz
I was solo mining MagiCoin XMG..
-
merope
great_taste: That's identical to mining solo, unless you have other people joining you
-
LikWidChz
right now I do roughly ~700 XMG a day.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
If you ever try to add large hr to a small pool, a large miner will come tonsteal your dinner
-
LikWidChz
lolol
-
merope
ofrnxmr[m]: PPLNS doesn't care
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Xmg = toilet paper
-
ofrnxmr[m]
merope: It does.
-
LikWidChz
yeah I mean its one step above duco
-
ofrnxmr[m]
I was 90% of the hr until 8mh showed up to find the block and take all the moneyb
-
ofrnxmr[m]
And throw me crumbs
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Anytime a small miner finds a block, its a donation to a large miner
-
LikWidChz
dont you get a single XMR coin when you solo?
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Sure, the vast majority of these miners have never found a block and have been paid some dollars for their contribution
-
ofrnxmr[m]
But theyΚΎ eventually find one, and give it away
-
merope
I would have to check again that paper about pool types, but I'm pretty sure that PPLNS was one of the least susceptible schemes when it comes to pool hashrate swings
-
LikWidChz
well how nice of them.
-
merope
LikWidChz: the reward is 0.6 xmr/block, plus tx fees
-
LikWidChz
oh so 60% of a single XMR coin if you solo mine and find a block.
-
xfedex[m]
Finding a block is very difficult on Monero
-
merope
Yes
-
LikWidChz
I see.
-
xfedex[m]
unless you have at least 1 MH/s, it'll take a while
-
ofrnxmr[m]
At the low cost of mining with the weaker devices, I look at it sort of as a (more fair) lottery system than real life lotteries.
-
xfedex[m]
(a consumer CPU does ~2KH/s, so 1MH/s is 500 consumer CPUs)
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Cost less to participate, and payout can be very nice
-
LikWidChz
it just blows my mind the $$ people have invested in CPU based coins like they need piles of ~$600++ computers just running on a shelf.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Some shitcoins ive solomined, I consistently hit blocks at 20-70% due to hashrate swings
-
merope
Like I said, you need to have at least 200-300 kH/s to find ~1-2 blocks/month on average consistently. Anything less than that and you're gonna see some massive variance
-
LikWidChz
1-2 a month seems VERY good to be honest
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Yup.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Your purpose for mining is very important when deciding how to mine
-
LikWidChz
making it rain nickles!
-
merope
xfedex[m]: Well, a top tier ryzen does 10x that. 2 kH/s is more of an old crappy intel cpu
-
great_taste
get rich quicc
-
ofrnxmr[m]
And to go back to another point if endors, wasting energy is stupid
-
xfedex[m]
2 kH/s is more like a 2018 average price intel CPU
-
LikWidChz
Seems as if the 5950x does 23370.49hs
-
ofrnxmr[m]
At a certain point the lottery becomes impossible.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
But right now, I think there are enough small miners finding blocks in pools for it to be viable
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Small meaning, I often see 6-10kh miners as the one that found the block
-
xfedex[m]
LikWidChz, 5950x is not what I'd call a normal consumer CPU
-
LikWidChz
no?
-
ofrnxmr[m]
(Why I stopped pool mining. After I donated my first block)
-
LikWidChz
well I paid for that shit like in 2021 september! LOL.
-
xfedex[m]
btw, if you want to solo mine, on wownero it's easier to find a blocks (and reward was a little bit higher last time i checked)
-
LikWidChz
first time I ever spent ~2400 bucks on a computer
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Its a very good one, especially for Monerujo
-
ofrnxmr[m]
xfedex[m]: ^^
-
LikWidChz
glad to know its still good HAHA.
-
xfedex[m]
i've never spent more than β¬1000 on a single computer
-
LikWidChz
my last pc was a i53970k
-
merope
ofrnxmr[m]: You didn't donate anything. Your average payout over time is still the same (minus some small pool fee)
-
xfedex[m]
anyway i have a shitload of old computers that for some reason i don't throw in garbage
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Mining shitcoins to swap into monero = pumps monero price (buying pressure) = increase miner orofitbility = lower shitcoins price (selling pressure) = lower shitcoin profit
-
LikWidChz
we all do.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
So I also see shitcoin mining as a way to help the network, so long as it increases xmr mining profitability by putting buying pressure on xmr
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Moneroocean, for example
-
LikWidChz
mainly I wanted to mine shitcoins that were still tradeable on this low end hardware like OrangePi5s.. which come to think of it are actually NOT that low end.
-
merope
If they're actually doing ~750 H/s and consuming no more than 7.5 W of power to do it, then they have a very nice efficiency, on par with Ryzen
-
LZA_MENACE
plowsof selsta node was fine, not sure what the prob was
-
merope
Though the $/H/s may not be as good
-
LZA_MENACE
monerod running, uptime indicates no reboot
-
selsta
LZA_MENACE: thanks for checking, do you have incoming connections?
-
LikWidChz
yeah they are pretty low merope
-
xfedex[m]
does anybody know if the 1 GH/s botnet is still running?
-
LikWidChz
Oh now I remember its 1.3amps @ 5v
-
LikWidChz
I had one plugged into one of those usb power meter deals
-
merope
You also need to take into account the efficiency of the power supply though
-
LikWidChz
yeah its a 40amp meanwell
-
ofrnxmr[m]
plowsof @plowsof:matrix.org:
-
LikWidChz
no idea but Id imagine its not shit, it would seem to probably even itself out over 12 devices hammering it
-
LikWidChz
guess thou.
-
merope
Well, if you have a 6.5W and 80% efficiency, you get 750 H/s / 8.125W = ~92 H/s/W
-
merope
Which is still pretty good
-
merope
(Assuming you pay less than 0.10 $/kWh for the electricity)
-
LikWidChz
yeah id have to RTFM on my power costs they went up at the beginning of the year
-
ofrnxmr[m]
I say donated, because "averages out " also assumes that global hr will still be the same in 2 years when I would be able to gather the same amount over time
-
LikWidChz
one thing I wonder is if the XMRIG randomX code is not optimized for ARM.
-
merope
My memory is fuzzy atm, but iirc from my calculations, as long as your profitability stays the same, you get the same $/s regardless of nethash
-
merope
Can't look at my code right now though
-
LikWidChz
I was like brainstorming which coins I could mine with ARM then just trying to find miners and benchmarking to see which ones had the highest hashrates, although I would rather mine coins with lower value quicker than ones of higher value with less coin
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Np. I hear you though, and if this was bitcoin I wouldnt solo for all of the reasons youve stated
-
LikWidChz
ASICS make GPUs look like etch a sketches
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Its just that in practice, it seems hitting blocks isnt as hard as it seems on a calculator
-
LikWidChz
ahh well good thing perhaps ill try that out, let it run a week or 4
-
ofrnxmr[m]
And I assume this to be due to the hashrate/diffuculty swings
-
plowsof11
LZA_MENACE: monerod --add-exclusive-node 51.79.173.165:18080 --log-level 2 (p2p failures)
-
merope
LikWidChz: you need to run some benchmarks for different mining algorithms and then use a mining calculator to compare the profitability, and then pick the one with the highest profitability
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Moneroocean has a tool that should do it for their supported algos
-
LikWidChz
yeah thats what I have been brainstorming but just overwhelming. BTW I'm rich now!
-
LikWidChz
0.00000863
-
LikWidChz
XMR.
-
merope
Takes a little while to get oriented at first, but once it all clicks together it's pretty straightforward
-
LikWidChz
well I think its the linux aspect I dont know why they dont make a single linux miner that just mines every coin
-
LikWidChz
trying to sift through shit you know
-
LikWidChz
half the stuff doesnt compile and when it does it doesnt work right and or the documentation on how to use it is a bit lack
-
merope
Different mining algos have different hardware requirements, so it takes different kinds of expertise to develop stuff
-
LikWidChz
so far I have ~32000 XMG "Magi Coins" and I started mining roughly middle of january and got a kick start of 7000 XMG coins since I traded those worthless duco coins for it.
-
merope
And of course, some devs want to make extra money on top of it, so they keep some optimizations for themselved under closed source
-
LikWidChz
sure I can see that
-
LikWidChz
btw you sound like you know a lot, how long have you been doing this .. crypto stuff in general?
-
merope
I started in 2017
-
LikWidChz
ahh nice, have you sold any to make real $$?
-
LikWidChz
*coins of whatever type
-
merope
LMAO, I wish
-
LikWidChz
oh are you just hoarding them?
-
merope
Nah, just a broke mf who spent way too much time in these chats asking questions :D
-
merope
But I like figuring things out
-
LikWidChz
haha
-
LikWidChz
yeah I am curious on how you exit and get real $$
-
LikWidChz
hows that work out on your taxes or whatever bs.
-
merope
That strongly depends on which country you live in
-
LikWidChz
here I send them to you, you take the money out and put it in a box and ship it to me, problem solved!
-
merope
But all you need to sell is to register on an exchange (if you don't mind KYC) or sell on p2p markets like Bisq or Localmonero
-
LikWidChz
yeah its going to be a while before I'm able to take a bag of nickels out.
-
merope
Yeah, tbh those Pis are so slow that they're barely worth the time to figure out how to set them up
-
LikWidChz
lol the whole movie Euro Trip where they tip the guy a nickle and he goes crazy and quits his job.
-
merope
Especially when you have a Ryzen that does >20x their performance
-
LikWidChz
yeah id do both
-
LikWidChz
or use both
-
merope
At least you have a bunch of them, so once you figure out the initial setup you can just copy-paste stuff around
-
LikWidChz
yeah its not a big deal on my end to do that..
-
merope
But there are people mining on a single RPi and I just can't see how they hope to get anything useful out of it
-
merope
(And the classic RPi does ~100 H/s)
-
LikWidChz
yeah and the fact they are unobtainable due to idiots not knowing how to use other SBCs for their dumb projects
-
merope
-
merope
Super easy config file creator
-
LikWidChz
AMD EPYC 7T83 64-Core Processor -- 103706hs lol, its only 2k on ebay
-
LikWidChz
would be interesting to solo mine on that, my guess is you would hit a couple blocks and be able to pay for itself within a couple months
-
merope
That's a double cpu setup though
-
merope
And the mobos are hella expensive
-
ofrnxmr[m]
merope: Personally I use the config files from GitHub
-
LikWidChz
gah I want ugly ass looking CLI syntax lolol
-
ofrnxmr[m]
-
ofrnxmr[m]
-
merope
It would take quite a while to pay off those epycs. One monero block is ~100$ right now, so you'll need to hit 20 to pay just for one cou
-
merope
*cpu
-
LikWidChz
yeah well basic math there lol, I was betting on hitting a couple blocks a month
-
merope
Yeah, not gonna happen
-
LikWidChz
however a fun idea not something ill be dumping $$ into
-
ofrnxmr[m]
You could hit a couple in day, then go 8 months without finding another
-
LikWidChz
heh, ill go ahead and invest in lottery scratch its.
-
merope
Variance is a bitch
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Or you could hit nothing for 3 years
-
LikWidChz
heh
-
LikWidChz
gambling
-
ofrnxmr[m]
LikWidChz: Math
-
LikWidChz
yep
-
merope
Hence pooled mining: same average payout, but lower variance
-
LikWidChz
yeah I hear you.
-
LikWidChz
it just blows my mind on these asics how fast they are compared to GPUs, it makes them look like they are tied to a pole
-
merope
It's not the speed that makes them special
-
merope
It's the efficiency
-
LikWidChz
~60-80GH's compared to 30MH on gpu compared to Khs on these cpu based things
-
LikWidChz
would be pretty bonkers to have a dozen or two 60-80GHS devices solo mining a bitcoin wonder how many people do that, however gah you cant even compete!
-
LikWidChz
it all just kind of blows my mind.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
People have warehouses full of asics
-
merope
It doesn't matter how fast you're going, if you're spending more on electricity than you're earning by mining
-
merope
If you want to go faster you can just buy more chips, but if you have garbage efficiency then you'll always be at a net loss
-
merope
Efficiency is fundamental for profitability
-
merope
(Along with your electricity cost)
-
LikWidChz
yeah I hear you all there. wishful thinking
-
LikWidChz
unless we get fusion here .........................
-
ofrnxmr[m]
If you need a shitcoin to mine with cpu, id probably recommend wownero
-
LikWidChz
lol I thought that was a joke
-
merope
For example, right now you need 90 H/s/W mining efficiency just to break even with the electricity cost, if you're paying 0.10 $/kWh
-
LikWidChz
thank you I was going to ask about the comment about different decent CPU based coins to mine
-
merope
Hmmm, I guess I should add wownero to my bot, for comparison
-
merope
Does it even have a usd pair? Lol
-
ofrnxmr[m]
It has a btc pair
-
LikWidChz
.03 USD, winner winner almost a nickle
-
LikWidChz
AHAHAH its the monero logo upside down
-
merope
Yeah, I guess I'll do a double conversion
-
merope
Wownero is literally an april's fools monero meme fork
-
LikWidChz
someone should do another coin and rotate it 90 degrees insted of 180 and call it.. Eanaro
-
» LikWidChz scrambles to register that domain
-
ofrnxmr[m]
merope: Hard forks again on April 1 btw
-
great_taste
do you even make money mining shitcoisn?
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Yes
-
merope
But at some point people ate the onion and started trading that in exchanges as well, because why the fuck not
-
merope
ofrnxmr[m]: Lmao
-
LikWidChz
hahaha
-
great_taste
right, I believe you
-
LikWidChz
you guys are too funny
-
ofrnxmr[m]
merope: "Kunty karen"
-
LikWidChz
KarenCoin? specializes in HOA business.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Wownero hard fork codename "kunty Karen"
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Im not jokingb
-
LikWidChz
AHAHAHA i cant tell anymore
-
great_taste
setting up and maintaining mining rigs sound like quite a bit of work, boring kind of work
-
great_taste
it better make lots of money
-
LikWidChz
it prints nickles
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Wownero is a monero April fools fork
-
ofrnxmr[m]
But
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Its technically sound. Just doesnt have the network security of monero
-
great_taste
shill..
-
ofrnxmr[m]
The blockchain is tiny, so its easy to Solomine
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Wownero > ltc
-
LikWidChz
oh lord you werent kidding this is funny
-
LikWidChz
aha glad everyone is having fun with all this shit
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Anyway, mining shitcoins you make more money.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Dumping those shitcoins into xmr gets you more xmr than mining xmr would have
-
LikWidChz
maybe I do that
-
LikWidChz
what algo does it use?
-
ofrnxmr[m]
RandomWOW
-
LikWidChz
hahaha
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Randomx that mines faster :D
-
bridgerton[m]
<Bon π> Wownero better β€οΈ
-
LikWidChz
the joke goes there too
-
merope
If you think wownero is funny, look up the "Useless Ethereum Token"
-
merope
Crypto history is wild
-
LikWidChz
oh lord one sec, btw what miner for this kunty karen coin?
-
merope
I think xmrig supports that too
-
LikWidChz
intradasting
-
LikWidChz
OOOOH its there its RX/WOW
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Xmrig
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Stack wallet supports wownero and monero
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Wowlet wallet for desktop, I think, is fully featured including mining controls
-
LikWidChz
I want the local wallet though not these microsoft teams based wallets that do 110 different things
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Mining controls = wownero is solonining only
-
LikWidChz
oh lord dont even get me started on microsft teams fucking horrific.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
So wowlet makes mining setup easier (iirc)
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Stack wallet is just a wallet.
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Wowlet is also a wallet, and the official recommended one
-
LikWidChz
ill snag the wallet from their site and fiddlefuckaround like I always do!
-
bridgerton[m]
<Bon π> I like stack wallet very easy to use. I can't wait to get my PC to finally setup wowlet
-
bridgerton[m]
<Bon π> Way how it looks it's amazing
-
LikWidChz
Not sure why I like more coins with less value than less coins with more value
-
LikWidChz
your like rich broke that way??
-
merope
The problem with those is that they tend to be harder to sell
-
merope
Between tx fees, exchange fees, low liquidity, and market manipulation, you often lose a significant chunk of the "theoretical" money you had
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Tradeogre has some liquidity on wow though
-
bridgerton[m]
<Bon π> That is true wownero πi can't find shops to exchange it for
-
bridgerton[m]
<Bon π> Someone do something
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Those other "shit" shitcoins, are hilariousb
-
LikWidChz
however merope you were saying something you can mine wownero and trade it for monero?
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Fake pumps with no liquidity sucker you into mining it
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Yes, deposit wownero on tradeogre, exchangr to btc, then exchange to xmr
-
ofrnxmr[m]
Majesticbank had direct wownero swaps, but they've been down for 5 days or so. I wouldnt recommend majestic
-
LikWidChz
okay ill put that note in my notes!
-
pyromaniaco[m]
this is worth?
-
pyromaniaco[m]
πΌ
-
LZA_MENACE
neroswap does direct wownero swaps
-
LZA_MENACE
-
ofrnxmr[m]
-
LZA_MENACE
oh, i got you plowsof11
-
merope
Dang, 2% fee though
-
LZA_MENACE
saw your message in scrollback
-
selsta
"Connections by connection state" <-- went significantly down a couple days ago, any idea what happened here?
-
LZA_MENACE
noticed that. no idea
-
selsta
i think it would match with when it appeared offline on the seed node script
-
LikWidChz
heh I get 1002.2 Hs with wownero
-
ofrnxmr[m]
P2p data out rate wonky too
-
ofrnxmr[m]
In/out
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LZA_MENACE
just going to restart it
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LZA_MENACE
log level is 0 so no real info to go off of
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LZA_MENACE
seems to work now plowsof11 selsta
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LikWidChz
is there a best wownero miner pool that people like?
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ofrnxmr[m]
Wownero is solo only
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LikWidChz
oooh well I didnt RTFM.
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ofrnxmr[m]
It used to be the most profitable shitcoin on moneroocean
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LikWidChz
wheretomine.io/coins/wownero -- Whats this scheme listed?
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LikWidChz
you just solo mine to a pool or what the what
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ofrnxmr[m]
Old news
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ofrnxmr[m]
No, you run a node
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LZA_MENACE
Recommend jumping into #wownero on OFTC
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LikWidChz
whats OFTC?
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LZA_MENACE
Another IRC server
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LikWidChz
that another network like ahh right
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LikWidChz
I'll have to give wownero a whirl
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LikWidChz
LZA_MENACE, thanks joined it
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LikWidChz
I can ask some wow questions.
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LikWidChz
the memes and the amount of silly shit people do is hilarious
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nioc
ofrnxmr[m]> Its just that in practice, it seems hitting blocks isnt as hard as it seems on a calculator And I assume this to be due to the hashrate/diffuculty swings <<>> difficult to distinguish this from variance, where did Las Vegas come from? :D
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Alex|LocalMonero
<LZA_MENACE> "Recommend jumping into #..." <- does wow have a matrix server?
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Alex|LocalMonero
MajesticBank deactivated their matrix account, so looks like they exit scammed.
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LZA_MENACE
lol
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LZA_MENACE
nice
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LZA_MENACE
MajesticExchange still idling
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LZA_MENACE
there's a MajesticBank idling in #wownero OFTC
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LZA_MENACE
not sure Alex|LocalMonero - see lots of idlers with [m] though
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Alex|LocalMonero
LZA_MENACE: the [m] doesn't show the homeserver? Maybe he has multiple accounts.
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Alex|LocalMonero
The matrix homeserver, that is.
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LZA_MENACE
so far just matrix.org
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bike[m]
<Alex|LocalMonero> "MajesticBank deactivated their..." <- whats majestic bank
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ofrnxmr[m]
It used to be an exchange
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ofrnxmr[m]
A swap service*
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plowsof11
only 24/25 deactivates their matrix account
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Alex|LocalMonero
s/, so looks like they exit scammed//
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plowsof11
LZA_MENACE: thanks, working now <3
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DiegoSalazar[m]
Scary.
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escapethe3ra[m]
<alex[m]> " * MajesticBank deactivated..." <- It might just turn out that Paris was right in August 2022:
monero.observer/dread-staff-majesticbank-warning
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Morpheus[m]
<DiegoSalazar[m]> "Scary...." <- Can some wallets integrate Trocador now? Please, haha ππππ
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Morpheus[m]
* Can some wallets integrate Trocador now? Pleeeease, haha ππππ
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ofrnxmr[m]
Morpheus: is it a lot of trouble to integrate neroswap.com
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ofrnxmr[m]
Ive never used it LZA_MENACE: would you know if its possible?
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DiegoSalazar[m]
Morpheus[m]: Ye we'll prioritize for this week.
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ajs_[m]
so...
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ajs_[m]
this is awkward
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ofrnxmr[m]
So... free money?
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ofrnxmr[m]
Ill take it if you dont want.... js
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Morpheus[m]
ofrnxmr[m]: I'll take a look, thanks
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Morpheus[m]
DiegoSalazar[m]: Loved
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ajs_[m]
it looks like we are going to have an open slot for top tier monerokon sponsorship (again)
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DiegoSalazar[m]
ajs_[m]: Seeing as how stack integrated mb, it stands to reason out falls to us. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
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DiegoSalazar[m]
But it is a burden I'm willing to bear
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DiegoSalazar[m]
For Monero.
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DiegoSalazar[m]
And there wasn't a dry eye in the house.
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DiegoSalazar[m]
:P
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plowsof11
i love that seen from shrek? "some of you may die, but that is a risk i am willing to take"
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ajs_[m]
i wonder if they are going to come back and claim a refund
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ofrnxmr[m]
He had 16 ALTs force us
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ajs_[m]
good thing we haven't printed banners yet
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ofrnxmr[m]
Hey, hes not confirmed dead yet
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ofrnxmr[m]
For all we know, he comes back online on Monday π« acting like nothing happened
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ajs_[m]
how long has MB's site has been down?
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ofrnxmr[m]
19th
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ofrnxmr[m]
But someone supposedly had a bad trade on the 22nd
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ofrnxmr[m]
Need to find Reddit link but the block explorer tx they posted was from 22nd
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DiegoSalazar[m]
plowsof11: Ah good. That did come across then. That's what I was going for.
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ofrnxmr[m]
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plowsof11
its been 6 days, unprofessional yes? lets wait a bit before the public execution, how long you want to give them?
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ofrnxmr[m]
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ofrnxmr[m]
plowsof11: The community manager hasnt heard from his boss in 6 days either
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plowsof11
maybe its a rendering error
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plowsof11
ajs_: ^^^
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ofrnxmr[m]
Morpheus: needs a chart for "msjesticbank stops withdrawals"
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DiegoSalazar[m]
On the bright side I finally finished my porch so you guys are invited to come hang out.
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bridgerton[m]
<BobbedBort> Isn't this the second time Majestic had similar problems? If my memory is not faulty, I remember people worried about an exit scam situation with Majestic maybe a year or a two ago as well.
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ofrnxmr[m]
<escapethe3ra[m]> "> <@alex[m]:libera.chat> * Majes..." <- It might just turn out that Paris was right in August 2022:
monero.observer/dread-staff-majesticbank-warning"
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Alex|LocalMonero
<DiegoSalazar[m]> "On the bright side I finally..." <- where is your porch?
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ofrnxmr[m]
* > It might just turn out that Paris was right in August 2022:
monero.observer/dread-staff-majesticbank-warning
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DiegoSalazar[m]
Alex|LocalMonero: In my backyard.
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Alex|LocalMonero
where is your back yard?
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DiegoSalazar[m]
Alex|LocalMonero: The moon.
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DiegoSalazar[m]
The freight expenses were massive.
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ofrnxmr[m]
"Next to my neighbors"
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Alex|LocalMonero
DiegoSalazar[m]: can i see it?
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Alex|LocalMonero
or is it on the dark side?
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DiegoSalazar[m]
I'm sorry, no. I'd rather you didn't look at the moon, if you don't mind.
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ofrnxmr[m]
DiegoSalazar[m]: You should use ground shipping next time tbh
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Alex|LocalMonero
π