hello, im pretty new to crypto and would like to ask for some advice. I heared about hardware/ offline wallets and want to know which ones are recommended (foss if possible). Id also like to know where to buy and sell monero, what software to use and what to look out for. I am additionally still looking for communitys and resources in this topic

where I can learn more. Thank you for any help provided <3

Franz3, you've checked out getmonero.org ?

not yet, thank you

localmonero for p2p "marketplace" buying/selling

and hw wallet = use paper wallet, but dont use the moneroaddress.org link in the guide for creating a paper wallet on getmonero. Use the github link

whats the story with moneroaddress.org ?

oh wow that redirect

is a paper walleta comon solution around here?

thank you for the hint regarding the direct github link, that helps ofrnxmr[m]

this feather wallet is syncing quite rapidly

I have a balance but no transaction history. 72674 blocks remaining. It can take time to see a transaction history?

If we respond with "Sure, you should feel right at home there." would that be too savage?

nope they called localmonero a dumpster fire. If you cant take shit dont give it.

What is the main reason behind lack of motivation re: XMR-BTC

swaps

Wasnt much volume?

Seems like a cool thing to me

If monero moved to using libp2p would be possible to connect to the monero p2p network through the browser itself as well

"Security investigation is ongoing. We report victim addresses to major exchanges & blockchain analytics to trace and block the stolen funds." ... Yes block those bitcoins

kittypity[xmpp]: I didn't know darkfail has nitter instance

👋

Got a question. I'm new to Monero and I'm trying to get it set up locally. I was given the option of either running the node locally or using a remote node. Did some searching and apparently using a public remote node is not advised.

Are there any cons to using a VPS to run a node instead of doing it locally?

I'd much rather have it set up elsewhere rather than locally.

a dodgy VPS may intercept traffic i guess

Couldn't my ISP do the same or is it just about my connection to the VPS?

so if youre trying to do anonymous stuff might not be the best route

Got it, so there's no getting around doing it locally if it's for anon

yeah, and through tor or a chain of VPNs

for your actual transactions

Makes sense

although might be best practice to keep monero always through a vpn so your ISP cant directly connect you to it. Running a node may make you suspicious all in itself

Yeah, I always got VPN on + kill switch

VPNs just shift the problem from one provider to the next

Had an IP leak before, learned that lesson the hard way

gotta choose your poison, not like you can verify 100% a VPN nologs, or that TOR isnt doing the same

Yeah, I getcha

If you want to prevent people from snooping traffic between your wallet and your node, then you need to full control your node

but yeah buy a few VPNs with crypto, so at least they only have your IP and not credit card

Oh yeah, got into that habit several years back

I use crypto whenever possible

Not a fan of adding my CC to everything nor my phone number

cos an IP Address itself isnt proof that a specific person did anything

for sure

there is a push to get everyone on VPNs so that the vpn companies log everything , rather than the millions of ISPs, its a way to get around the problem of data capturing

you have like what, 10 good VPN companies, vs millions of ISPs

Yeah and I also remember the days of the HMA controversy

tbf privacy advocates and groups have also become smarter since

yeah does monero randomize its data and ports so that it isnt easily detected except by running a node?

A suspect if its easily detected it is likely one of many flags you may be getting by certain agencies

there's not much to randomize between wallets and nodes

wasnt there some bill trying to be passed recently that could ban VPNs in the USA?

there is some work in progress to encrypt p2p traffic between nodes, but it's not done yet

doesnt necessarily need to be encryption , could just be a node secret key generated when it connects, to defeat the simplest of detections (byte sequences)

yes, and the way you use that key is through encryption

but some kind of Diffie–Hellman key exchange would make it "perfect" for that, unable to easily be captured

yeah i mean technically XORing is encryption, so you are right

OTP

(XORing by itself isn't encryption though)

Encrypt the secret key exchange ,use a generated OTP for speed reasons

the main reason is to avoid byte sequence analysing not full blown secret sharing between nodes, unless there is a reason that is needed?

the goal is to make traffic indistinguishable from random noise

well you would get that with a decent size OTP generated through key exchange

and no speed loss in p2p communication

because if you imagine a block transfer, with 160GB existing data for new clients, you dont really want your encryption algorithm to be slowing down nodes even more

But I think in the end all the agencies interested will be running their own monero (or whatever) nodes anyhow, getting full network data

unavoidable with p2p

Damn, a lot of people shutting down recently, ipfs-search too

i was thinking of closing monero.house since its like 10€ a month but with reddits upcoming api changes it suddenly got a bunch of traffic :)

Monero has been tremendously helpful in finding out how governments will react to something they cant track

and it seems there is constant pressure on bitcoin with these united states agencies suing and trying to lock up everyone involved in anything

@monerobull what API changes is it doing exactly?

charging a ton of money

who uses reddit API, what type of people?

so mod tools will die, all third party apps too

its to stop 3rd party clients?

so something something privacy and money related

The best future I see right now for anyone concerned with financial privacy is that bitcoin somehow remains "as is", that is retains its #1 status and can be brought/sold by average joe at McDonalds average type exchanges

then there is something which has a complete commerce/messaging/whatever aspect built into it, along with decentralized bitcoin in/out

with monero level privacy

so no more need for "silk road" type places, its all built into the one "killer crypto app", with full privacy

but without a "safe" Crypto to get in and out of it, like Bitcoin, it wont work

bitcoin isn't safe

right, but if you go into "monero" and out of "monero", which a lot of people do right now right, its much harder to track

because monero isnt getting pushed anywhere on major exchanges where all the millions of people are, due to govt pressure

never leaving monero is even harder to track

so you need a crypto that is thought of as "safe", for a new privacy orientated financial system to operate, until that other system is destroyed

yeah obviously, just saying there needs to be easier ways to get fiat in and out of privacy orientated financial systems

dont you wish you could just go to your corner store, and buy Monero/whatever with cash?

I wish I could just pay with Monero

and in most places, you can

yeah, but we operate in a world where 99% of NPCs dont care about privacy, so you have to backdoor your privacy system into use through clever methods

it's just a matter of adooption

> NPCs

See, I don't think treating people like lack any agency will help change their minds

does govt telling everyone Monero is "illegal" and only used by criminals help the cause? Do governments banning it help it? I think it hinders it

at least as it is now

fortunately, the world is bigger than the US

most of the Swift nations have "banned" it

restricting the use of monero on public exchanges

There needs to be an easy way to get fiat into any privacy orientated system, because wealth right now is mainly measured by nation fiat, not crypto. So while that exists there needs to be easier ins and outs, not harder ins and outs

So I think if Monero had very easy ways to get in and out of Bitcoin, combined with its own version of a decentralized marketplace and webspace, it could potentially become the most used crypto even if Bitcoin is worth way more, if that makes sense

man id so spend the 5 grand or what a XMR ATM costs

but the laws here require you to have a fucking banking license in order to operate those

imagine if governments werent so evil, i bet most of us here would be operating them

pushing the new financial freedom

ill just be a internet based xmr atm once haveno is done

but they love being able to create their currencies out of thin air, and ruling over us, so it will never happen

s/a/an/

there needs to be a better transition thought up than what is out there right now

I am working on a crypto marketplace for products, services, jobs, exchanges: bitejo.com as well as fundraisers kuno.bitejo.com

100% KYC-free and outside of the state. Intended as an addition to local cash-in-hand gray markets (which already work for e.g. under-the-table work, apartment rentals without ID, access medicine without prescriptions).

More info here: agorism.blog/anarkio/survival-outside-the-state

@anarkio how do you get around them shutting down your domain and web server?

This is why I mention the "killer privacy financial app" has to have a decentralized marketplace, web and messaging system built in

these are the basics for vendor/consumer relations

No one has cared to shut it down or hack it since the launch in 2021. Personally I need KYC-free markets because I can't get government ID.

no one cares simply because it has no traction if it gets traction it will be shutdown since its centralized

It may be possible to fork Haveno or add a "products/services" tab to it, after it is launched. OpenBazaar is also being rebooted.

best case, worst case you go to jail for some made up reason

If cops make a random ID control in the streets, it would already be over for me. Sadly it is already "illegal to be alive".

that must stress you out to some extent

How you coping?

There is no alternative.

If anyone would shut down Bitejo, I would try to host it somewhere else, but I can barely afford food and rent.

Right now Bitlaunch.io seems fine.

Well way I see it, nearly all cryptos are running on a p2p network, including in these "killer app" features will be a necessity at some point due to censorship

the ideal situation is we have enough time to get a first mover advantage

twitter.com/openbazaar is rebooting and hopefully Haveno will launch this year (and it may be possible to fork it for products/services).

You could also look at Particl.io

yeah, i think the "killer crypto", would have this all built in, with high ease-of-use

so that way you only need one download to get started, no websites, no unnecessary centralization

That would just make your one app the single point of centralization

And it would be absolute hell to develop

Do one thing and do it well

thats right, one app for all you need

and you are also right that it would be hell to develop

but take away the development aspect of it, what the world needs is basically decentralized and secure "messaging/market/banking"

lmao

You can't "take away the development aspect of it" - if nobody can build it, then it will never exist

It will forever remain vaporware

well just for arguments sake you can take it away, in the end though all that is needed is possible, it isnt theoretical science

of course it's possible

but someone needs to put in the work

so the killer crypto will have all that ,do you disagree?

I'm not sure why you keep insisting on this "killer app" thing

its about ease of use mainly

in the first place

hughgrant[m]: Yes, strongly

do you want to install 50 different things, expose yourself to unneeded centralization to get something to work?

or is it all in the one killer app

<anarkiocrypto[m4> "twitter.com/openbazaar..." <- Looking forward to OpenBazaar. It is still supporting XMR, right?

im not saying its going to be easy, or that anyone will do it, but that is what is needed

> install 50 different things, expose yourself to unneeded centralization

statement A does not imply statement B, nor is statement A truthful in the first place

hughgrant[m]: again, strong disagree about the necessity

well right now to do decentralized exchanging, can i do it through monero itself? or do i need to run another (pointless) p2p network?

the answer is latter, its unneeded

but feel free to prove me wrong by implementing it

monero already has a p2p network, why not use it

because Monero is not an exchange platform

and that is just the tip of the iceberg, exchanging in and out of monero is only one problem ,and its not that hard to solve

but there are atomic swaps, if you want

decentralized messaging and web interface is harder to achieve, in scale

luckily, messaging does not need a blockchain

no but it needs a crypto behind it, otherwise it will be abused

[citation needed]

if i dont need to "spend internet points" to send something, then i can just run a simple script, on 10000 AWS servers to kill the network

<monerobull[m]> "grafik.png" <- ChatGPT-style monero report generator when?

Similar to what phind.com does to stackoverflow, we can have an AI that scans all the Monero community related pages and provides news and summaries for us.

but sure you could use some scaling system to allow free messages, if the network load is low

k4r4b3y[m]1: > <@k4r4b3y:karapara.net> ChatGPT-style monero report generator when?

>

> Similar to what phind.com does to stackoverflow, we can have an AI that scans all the Monero community related pages and provides news and summaries for us.

uh

hughgrant[m]: so simple, yet nobody does it today with all the current messaging platforms

someone scraped r/monerosupport and trained a model for me but its trash

@endor if you imagine the killer crypto, it means it can be used by a billion people at once right?

so you cant just be letting easy network attacks slide, that is why a points system is needed, ie a currency

the training data was really messy. we should probably train a decent model on a handcreated dataset at some point

why do you keep insisting on this "killed" adjective? it's so weird

train it on 4chan

hughgrant[m]: I think you're just mashing ideas together without really grasping why things work a certain way

im talking about what could be the next "big thing" in crypto, the term "killer app" is often used to describe such a thing

I know what it means

will you need points to stop network attacks, because if it was free to send a monero transaction, you could bloat the blockchain to 200tb with no cost

making it virtually impossible to be a node

do you understand why crypto has transaction fees?

the reason why crypto has transaction fees is exactly the reason the web/messaging/market place of this killer app needs transaction fees

Yes, I know what transaction fees do, too

😐️

<merope> "and in most places, you can" <- LOL. Absolutely nowhere.

I meant from a legal standpoint, not adoption

(at least going off of the current map here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_c…ptocurrency_by_country_or_territory )

only shows btc. Fake monero user

Compile a Monero-only map and I'll be happy to share it

Until then, I'll just read what the article says and notice that it mostly talks about all cryptocurrencies in general, and not bitcoin specifically

i will travel the world and collect data

Afghanistan X mark.svg Illegal

In August 2022 Taliban banned trading in cryptocurrencies

Monero is "banned" in what, South Korea, Dubai, Australia, USA?

seems it isnt just monero but any privacy related "coins"

not banned in aus, just cant buy of exchange

s/of/off/

yeah if the govt is pressuring exchanges to accept it, it is "something", what do you call that

i mean to not accept it

sudo ban

shadow ban

pseudo ban

a hint at what may be coming worse i guess

in my opinion, in the ideal world you have some crypto that is popular, accepted most places, not easily controlled (ie bitcoin), and then 100% decentralized currencies which can convert in and out

where you can do all you need in that one currency

and if you need fiat, you have ways to get in and out "easily"

<hughgrant[m]> "although might be best practice..." <- > <@hughgrant:matrix.org> although might be best practice to keep monero always through a vpn so your ISP cant directly connect you to it. Running a node may make you suspicious all in itself

we need i2p working with monero

i think it should all be built into the one thing

already does

whatever is necessarily for a global, completely free and uncontrollable currency

hughgrant[m]: if you truly believe that's the way to do it, go ahead and build it

the community will be more than happy with a working solution

well ive been thinking about all the parts of it for a long time, and of course the best solution is someone just releases it completely finished

that someone can be you! ;)

we have a lot of "fund me to finish" in the crypto space, due to complexity dont we

but satoshi didnt

the next thing shouldnt either

you can be the next satoshi

nobody is stopping you

but it is an order of magnitude more complex than bitcoin, so

Could be you too Endor00

I already have plenty on my plate

yeah? anything you can discuss publicly

plenty I've already discussed

(not right now,)

ok, im unaware of all that, excuse my ignorance

no worries

<monerobull[m]> "so mod tools will die, all third..." <- > <@monerobull:matrix.org> so mod tools will die, all third party apps too

are teddit and libreddit included in these dying third parties?

k4r4b3y[m]1: i dont see how theyd operate without api access

i didnt realize reddit APIs were used so much

reddit must die

I don't know how they're implemented, but they could be just scraping webpages under the hood (in theory), kinda like newpipe does

long live lemmy

(for youtube)

reddit and things like it to me are like the antithesis of me

k4r4b3y one day maybe a crypto will include reddit in its killer app package :P

crypto should do one thing and do it good

leave the internet forums to other software (again, lemmy and federated solutions are good for that)

you need to do everything related to govt censorship to survive current environment imo

nope

have you heard about UNIX philosophy?

so you are against a crypto financial os ?

LMFAO

dream big baby

hughgrant[m]: > <@hughgrant:matrix.org> so you are against a crypto financial os ?

where are you pulling these out from?

why not make a crypto-only computer

no backdoors, x86-64 crypto computers all in one

AT&T UNIX archives: piped2bbch4xslbl2ckr6k62q56kon56ffo…a4sash3ad.onion/watch?v=tc4ROCJYbm0

this is my philosophy

crypto-only car

crypto-only shoes

your crypto should provide everything, car, house

:P

web3 shoes

@hughgrant:matrix.org check out dark.fi that might be more your alley

(not real)

* (not real) (NFT) (metaverse)

not everything needs a fucking token

smart contracts dont scale

replace car keys with NFTs, and carry with you a hardware wallet that has to sign a message with your private keys every time you give a driving input to your car

Not everything needs a token, there needs to be one token to rule them all

tx fee to low? sorry, you're not steering that wheel buddy

everything decentralized, on one token

better raise it or you'll miss your exit

Me or endor00 will provide it, ETA unknown

k, keep me posted

the next bitcoin shouldnt be about an exit, its about just dumping the next future on humanity, and watching the chaos unfold

we need rich elite programmers making this next thing

@hughgrant:matrix.org genuinely asking: have you heard about dark.fi ?

i just heard about it and am reading

I think it is more closer to what you are pining for

its first 2 sentences to me sound unscalable

lol

so it makes me laugh slightly, but i should give it more time

let it sit on the backburner

im dunning krugering it hard right now

everytime something happens in "ethereum" the gas price shoots up like its 1979 and Iran has beaten the USA

Ethereum cant scale to thousands, let alone the future financial saviour of the Earth

don't save those who don't want to be saved

unfortunately we need the sheep with us for something to be mass adopted, at least until the covid vaccines "work" :P

I just find it funny whenever people talk about "scaling", yet they never specify "of what", in what units of measurement, or which reference value

all of us here could deal with CLI xmr-btc swaps, 99.9% of humanity couldnt

mass adoption without proper preparation is a poison pill. You don't want to have an overnight adoption to billions if they are going to be KYC'ed and custodial'ed.

mass adoption that comes gradually, and with education for each new cohort of newcomers is more sticking.

karabey yes you are 100% right on that

hughgrant[m]: As someone who has been "here" a while, you have no idea how off the mark you are...

everyone now is trying to make the "next thing" in crypto so they can become the next millionaire "scammer" (in the public eyes)

hughgrant[m]: hughgrant: seraidex is an upcoming monero-supported DEX that will (probably) have good UI/UX

Good enough for normal people to be able to use it

hughgrant[m]: ...aren't you trying to make the "next thing" as well?

Noobs?

cockliuser: thanks for the info

do we have an ETA on it?

they have security audits and stuff going on rn

i personally support all crypto people working to improve the distribution of financial control, and wish all of them were millionaires already

yes, anyone that helps me outpace the government controls over my life is my fren.

i feel like the "financial control" is independent of every other thing that can make us "different" and "hate each other", humanity should all support a free and open currency and market

<merope> "(at least going off of the..." <- If you take that map as gospel, then maybe. But the map is wrong. Around here, buying and selling "crypto" is allowed, you just can't use it for anything. AKA. Speculation is legal.

in most established economies all crypto gains/losses need to be reported to your government agency

<font color="#789922">>Speculation is legal</font>

yes here too

government does everything to command the perception of the masses that cryptocurrencies are not "currencies" but crypto "stocks"

THey are "unregistered securities" whatever that means

but what it partially means is you havent bribed your local politician to allow it

of course all of us are minnows compared to central banks who control government, so

TrasherDK[m]: Well, it's supposed to be an aggregation point for all that information... sadly, it's quite messy and complicated to find out more without digging into each country's laws specifically

you cant outbribe a politician if you are going against the central banks

unlimited vs limited

hughgrant[m]: some "cryptos" are unregistered securities tho (howie test)

Hell, I'm not even 100% sure of how everything is supposed to work in my own country

premined ones for example

hughgrant[m]: > <@hughgrant:matrix.org> you cant outbribe a politician if you are going against the central banks

so we play outside their rules, and invent our own money.

@cockliuser SEC pretty much has pulled everyone in recently with "unregisted securities"

you can't win against an opponent who is stronger than you in his own game.

did you see their binance claims?

hughgrant[m]: they won't be able to pull in decentralized ones

its like the USA SEC controls the world financial system (they do)

hughgrant[m]: Binance going down is a net positive for us anyway

SEC has judge goons on their side, you cannot beat them

@k4r4b3y is right

Binance has been openly doing shady shit for a long time, frankly I'm surprised they lasted this long

Ccp?

They've done nothing that has gone against their own terms from what I Know

so everyone had access to their terms I thought

They printed paper monero for years

I thought i heard they move alot of there crypto too monero recently 

they have?

you have verifiable proof hopefully

April monerun

Thought i saw it in an article

"yeah yeah i saw it in a CNN article, its legit"

i would hope monero users would be a bit more savvy than the average npc

On fox

Oh fox, thats legit then

hughgrant[m]: Lmao so if in my ToS I say that I'm good with ponzi schemes, then everything is ok?

That's not how any of this works, and that's a good thing.

Lol

@endor00 thats right, if you say its a ponzi and people invest, no problem

yes problem

ToS can't break local laws. If they do, local laws apply

what problem

it's a ponzi

so in your mind you want governance over monero ? damn that sucks, i guess we disagree

objection your honor, reaching

don't put words into my mouth by deliberately misinterpreting what I say

If someone says their thing is a pyramid scheme, or related to one, and people invest, thats ok to me

I'm talking about Binance and their financial products, which has nothing to do with Monero or its governance

hughgrant[m]: Binance never said that publicly

its a risk, some pyramid scheme participants make bank, why stop them

hughgrant[m]: what's ok to you is your business, but financial laws exist for a reason

well i dont tie any government law to monero, or anything else, but you are free to

As far as I understand, printing paper monero and fractional reserve banking isn't in their terms

some consumer protection laws are good. which laws are adequate for that purpose is a separate matter

So yes, they also violated their "terms"

i believe in personal agency, if something sounds too good to be true, it usually is, but for savvy investors they can make bank on it

and many do right now on new cryptos

i dont think Endor00, or hughgrant, should be able to stop financial transactions

have I ever said that? no

so why do you think these people should be locked up?

you mentioned "law"

because the law still exists

^

sure the law exists, but do you agree that it should?

yes

theres a difference between knowing there is a current law, and thinking it is a just and right law

I believe that outlawing ponzi schemes is just and right

ok

so you want a level of control over monero then, so you can stop law breakers?

weird

are you implying that Monero as a whole is a ponzi scheme?

Because if not, then your statement is a nonsequitur

should you be able to stop law breakers who disagree with your views? that means your currency needs some level of control

its very simple

it seems you do agree with at least "some" restrictions on finance

so either you keep throwing around logical fallacies out of deliberate malice, or you should really educate yourself on some basic logic and logical fallacies, for your own good

should a government be able to regulate some financial activities?

yes

well its that simple

nothing more needs to be discussed on it

I never specified which activities or how, so the general statement applies

anyway

I'm done wasting my time for today

endor00: The short version:

nortonrosefulbright.com/en/knowledg…f-regulations-to-prohibit-the-usage

What if I don't live in Thailand though? 😅

Doesnt apply

<merope> "What if I don't live in Thailand..." <- A shitload of people do.

Millions and the billions

TrasherDK[m]: A shitload more don't :P

The map you referenced, have Thailand in green.

Then correct it 🤷‍♂️

You made the wrong statement, so you do it 😂

I just said that that's all the information I have, not that it's 100% correct

It was the comment before that that woke me up. Something like "it can be used everywhere" along those lines.

Ladies

Love not fight

* Love not war

👉👈

Just wasting time, waiting for fsck.ext4 to finish. 4 days in already.

Law is very subjective, and obviously most of us here are under some obligation to obey it or end up in permanent incarceration

thats separate from your own personal belief over an ideal financial system, i dont think i should be able to control another persons transaction, but many people like @endor00 exist that think they should be able t

and they aren't alone , or weird in that belief, its the majority that think that

so i think people should understand the reality of what we face now, most people dont agree with anonymous transactions, which is why it needs to be engineered into the system that these same normies accept

hughgrant[m]: I think that most normies don't really care about anonymous vs non anonymous. If the anonymous and private option was far more convenient, they wouldn't object to it, I think

this isnt some "simple thing" that one person invents over a saturday, but something that is ongoing and continually needs adjustment, just like the existing controllers do on our unfair currenncy

@dreamcity 100%

propaganda and information dispersal is a never ending game, you need people better than the opposition

hughgrant[m]: And right now you're helping your claimed "opposition" by spreading bullshit

Governments, however may not love Monero. However, there is no evidence that Monero adoption would raise tax evasion/avoidance by normie people, that's why I think that they wouldn't really care

I am ender?

@dreamcity since when was evidence required for govt policy?

surely the last few years has shown any doubters what is happening behind the curtains

I was easily able to acquire monero in 2015, and since then it has become increasingly harder

so 8 years has changed a lot for monero, in isolation

it isnt like monero has felt the full force of any government against it, so there is way more that could happen, that is already likely happening behind the scenes right now, and monero is not placed to handle it

and its not monero exclusive, monero was among the first decent privacy orientated currency, and now its facing severe backlash among others

and if you had invested a lot in monero, hoping its going to stay around forever, then you would hope the things necessary for that are being developed, which to some extent they are, but they arent very well supported

and i dont think anyone is necessarily at fault for this btw, there is no one to blame or whatever ,it is just reality

i think 90+% of people involved in this space have very humanistic goals in mind when doing any work, but like any human we all get burned out, and it is easier to get burnt out if we think few people believe in our ideology

all these decentralized world projects give us all so much information on how to improve and be better, so we should not fault any of them for such simplistic reasons

a monologue is great but try to produce some tangible issues for devs/contributors to work on if you think it will make Monero better, else this chat will go into the void

i already produced them @plowsof it is just that they are very macro and require a lot of work to produce

i already know what monero was at 2015 for example, and what it is now, it has become harder to invest in monero not easier

hughgrant[m]: It's also hard to know which things will be really effective and what is just "nice to have". For example, I would love to have more monero conferences close to where I live, but how useful would that REALLY be in reality?

@dreamcity what would more conferences do in your city exactly?

hughgrant[m]: To meet monero guys locally in person

I like to talk in-person. But I feel like It's more a luxury, more than anything else

So change would be rather minimal, on the 100 person scale

And in turn we have to adopt a perspective where Monero is "everything it needs to be", which it isnt, to be successful

it isnt only a monero fault ,its a crypto space fault

hughgrant[m]: True, but in my experience, the crypto/monero space fault tends to be far more critical than other community-based projects. So at the very least, It isn't THAT bad

Monero has advantages over bitcoin that no one can deny, yet, we havent seen that in reality have we

because unfortunately reality is made up of mostly NPCs

hughgrant[m]: Reality?

DNMs are pretty real

reality is subjective obviously, and not logical from a human perspective

hughgrant are you an NPC

our universe is a logical state machine

but humans are not obviously part of it 100%

same as we dont suggest every ant matters to our existence

offtopic / stream of consciousness warning for hughgrant

If i was an NPC i would have produced content you would already know

so it goes without saying

@plowsof you are the SEC of consciousness ?

you should preemptively stop people from improving monero, it will certainly help you :P

i am not alone ,or in minority in my opinion about monero, here is relatively upvoted post on reddit 6 years ago

"The problem is getting fiat gateways to accept Monero and vice versa. Without a clean way to turn Monero into straight fiat or the other way around, most buyers are not wanting to deal with the hassle of using Monero. I imagine most DNM transactions are for small amounts and a lot of users arent wanting to deal with exchanges and all that jazz"

since then we have had a govt crackdown on monero and other privacy related cryptos

I am against crackdowns on crypto currnency l;ike monero

Fiat gateways are great and underrated. BUT they aren't the most perfect and secure long term solution either. Fiat is still subject to regulations to some extent and they could make it less convenient to trade it for monero/crypto

@dreamcity i agree in the long term that they arent viable, but unfortunately they are needed for now

dont we want something like monero, with its privacy, the most used crypto in the world?

hughgrant[m]: I don't know about the "most used crypto", but It's true that It should be popular and at least as viable as fiat in an ideal world

but we both know that because monero is privacy orientated, it will never be as accepted as more centralized and weak cryptocurrencies right?

hughgrant[m]: I will be honest: I find cryptocurrency like bitcoin cash and other "smart coins" easier to sell to normies. Like It's easier to sell features and convenience rather than security.

Unfortunately those cryptocurrencies will always be at least very slightly more convenient than monero, because they focus on convenience before anything else

since you are educated on the matter, is there anything you would change about monero to help it achieve global reserve curnnecy status like the USD had?

hughgrant[m]: If I could find a way to make it super easy for people to acquire monero. Not only trading fiat for monero, but finding ways to make it really easy to make a living with monero for normies

@dreamcity so basically the same stuff since bitcoin came into existence in 2009

only like 15 people knew of it in 2008

hughgrant[m]: Not really. Imagine If you could sign up to a website and earn like $100 of xmr every month without doing anything. It would really boost monero popularity, If you could find a sustainable long term way of doing something similar to this

do you think it is "right" that people earn something whilst doing nothing?

as an example. the original coordinators of crypto.note deserve more than the sycophants who came later, or not?

hughgrant[m]: It's not like they would receive 1 million dollar and ten sport cars without doing anything :P . But a small amount like this could really boost monero popularity. People like free stuff

ok i agree with you @dreamcity , marketing isn't some 1:1 thing

what...how is it possble to give free monero.. this isnt pepe created nothing from nothing.

@modul8 i guess it depends on the promises made

i reckon miners should get some sort of nft for proof of work tryinh...cos they arnt getting much monero from it. at least the casuals like myself ;)

IMO, i think developer should get way more than miners

just as a badge of honour..not transferable...lol

modul8[m]: I can see some aggressive ways of doing it (e.g the google model of spying on people in exchange of a service). If you could trade people's time for monero, It could be great too. I mean earning $100 by playing clash of clans a bit everyday for some kid is kind of cool, isn't it

miners are an anybody, they have nothing outstanding about them ,developers are different

look at bisq DAO....they show their work and proposal then the dao mints them bsq...monero is different and i think most dont want to risk the coin being called a securiy or somethng by minting like zcash..etc

DAO isnt exactly some trusted entity

modul8[m]: The mining problem is pretty much impossible to solve. If you can mine fast with $1000 hardware, I can probably mine even more efficiently and faster with $10000 hardware...

it is what it is

lets say i have 10x more mining potential than the best monero dev, he should stil be compensated 10x more tha nme

this whole mining concept makes no sense with an evolving crypto

why should i with 2000 nvidia cards be more compenstated than a literal monero dev who makes actual decisions and improvements? makes zero sense

hughgrant[m]: Even If people received 0 XMR, there would still be some miners around to help the network. You don't want your money to be insecure, for example after all

obviously there will always be miners trying to make a buck, im talking about the literal geniuses making monero right now

you want to keep them underpaid so they dont contribute to monero?

theres already multiple projects in the last week discontinuing with XMR fo obvious reasons and you will shill against it

PAY THE ORiGINAL monweo devs and watch them comeback, you think 4000/mo is going to do it you are ridiculuosu

s/monweo/monero/, s/ridiculuosu/ridiculuos/

hughgrant: second warning: please head to #monero-offtopic:monero.social and quit spamming nonsense in here

anyone that can work 100% on monero or whatever, could make upto 500K/year in some tarded company job

@endor00 i dont think i am posting is offtopic, if you can adjust pay rates for availble p2p developers i will happily look into it and provide you as reference

endor00: I don't think hughgrant is trying to be malicious, they genuinely want some productive discussions about monero...

i love monero and anyone who has similar values, so evem of @end0r00 doesnt see it now, we are brothers in the war

If they wanted to be productive, they could have started by reading about the history of monero, its guiding principles, and why different components of the system work the way they do. So far they've just written walls of incoherent ramblings and thrown around logical fallacies to manipulate the conversation, with zero actionable ideas or proposals

hughgrant: Nah, you aren't in war. But he wants to keep the room moderated, clean and safe, so I understand his concerns, there are no bad guys per se

@dream well i dont want to be in a war , but icant help others seeing me as the enemy even though we are the same, i am somewhat used to it

The last few messages alone show a complete lack of understanding of what constitutes a fair distribution, or how the funding of the project works, or even who has done what

@ender00 you are now pretending you are the accurate representation of "democracy" or what

Low quality b8 m8

if youre aus llke me, just hug it out, dont be so auto

as hard as it is is, i might potentially be higher iq than you realize, test me in dms

either way I love all people working on their own version of decentralization

I would have hoped @endor00 had something for me but unfortnately not

I will return in 12 hours hoping that endor00 wi;l reply

I owe you nothing, and you are in no position to make demands from me

obviously endor00

if you are too scared to answer my questions that is ok, i didnt want to pinpoint you as a problem, you are a bride, thank you

@endoer00 do you know the original cryptonote developer?

i feel like the original developer is now a millionaire thanks to his design

the original developers with their ideas deserves payment and support more than monero affoded them

so even if CIA/FBI nerds have taken control of the top echelons of MONERO right now, no one will accept them in perpuity

Be gone spammer. Enough of this shit.

@trasherdk well if you are convinced

Maybe just push something non NPC on your stack

i guess chatgpt-2 not as powerful as you pretend

Ahh.. It didn't say NPC but ignore.

well im thankful for that heartfelt human reply anyhow, gee

❤️

Pwnd

if only we had funded monero dot shopping

thanks for whoever suggested this feather wallet. It synced.

<nsaunders> "thanks for whoever suggested..." <- Feather is the only wallet I know that syncs reliably.

It. Just. Works.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: feather should be the default official GUI wallet.

Until it is, people will get turned off from Monero because of constant sync issues with the current official GUI wallet.

LocalMonero gets a huge amount of support queries due to sync issues with the official GUI wallet.

We recommend use feather instead and everybody is happy.

People don't have the stats. We do. We know how often the average user gets turned off by the official GUI wallet. We know how satisfied people are with Feather. Based on that data it's ludicrous to keep pushing the official GUI.

I know it sucks that so much work was put into it and it's a waste. But this is the reality of the situation.

<hughgrant[m]> "since you are educated on the..." <- the problem is that monero is the type of coin that you, unless you are intelligent and live a rational life, only start owning once you get burned traditional finance

if nioc was here he would say CLI. this particular users problem was "syncing a full node is slow pls fix" - its possible to add a remote node to the gui / get it to use tor - but feather is indeed awesome - and even has 'local node management on the roadmap

plowsof11: CLI is fine. I'm talking about the GUI.

Feather makes it easy to use someone else's node

Alex|LocalMonero: agreed en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost

seraphis will fix the problem, do not worry

or rather this thedecisionlab.com/biases/the-sunk-cost-fallacy

The recommended Monero wallet should 100% have built in node support, ideally as a default

is the Monero GUI seraphis migration team in the room with us now

featherwallet is preparing and pushing things up stream for it 😄

* rational life or interested, only, * get burned by traditional finance

plowsof11: My recommendation button is ready

<plowsof11> if nioc was here <<>> where am I and how did I get here?

<Alex|LocalMonero> "I know it sucks that so much..." <- So it's only me, not having any sync problems for years, using only GUI & CLI wallets.

apologies nioc, s/if nioc was here/i wish nioc was here 😭

plowsof @plowsof:matrix.org: do better!

<TrasherDK[m]> "So it's only me, not having..." <- You're not the only one

The gui sync issues / the feather not having issues, is simple due to 1. the selection process of remote nodes 2. The ability to run a local jode

Node

its pretty obvious that monero attracts tin foil rabbit holers without enough skill to match

Give em gui and they try to run a localnode over nordnvpn with whonix on hdd

feather works because KISS

Yup. I've seen those "support requests". Mostly peps who can't be bothered to read the instructions.

<TrasherDK[m]> "So it's only me, not having..." <- Personal anecdote > all of our data?

<TrasherDK[m]> "Yup. I've seen those "support..." <- If your product doesn't just work out of the box you haven't made a good product. Expecting mass adoption with stuff not working out of the box is ludicrous.

* good product for mass adoption. Expecting

Feather. Just. Works.

Right. Gui, imo, isnt for normies.

Like, gui is far from consumer grade or comsumer friendly.

And feather works even better because of non-standard, potentially privacy reducing features like multibroadcast

Which trade reliability for trustlessness

An official gui shouldnt be doing multibroadcast unless cli does too

Thats not the expected behavior

mymonero is even easier for mass adopters. let's just recommend that for a first wallet.

wow no sync time, no confusing subaddresses

huge

binance monero wallet

Seriouslt. No node? Just hit send and receive and it works instantly, everytime

an alternative**

boom. email password login, simple

binance even supports paper monero

it's like an L2 for monero

one of my buddies used localmonero as his main wallet. Im not joking

plowsof @plowsof:matrix.org: please confirm

cryptogrampy[m]: Who needs ln

Binance is so much better than wallet of sanderhagen

ofrnxmr[m]: binance has huge stacks of those howard chu paper monero bux

I look forward for feather or either of the new desktop wallet providers adding in eas(ier)y to use node support. Until then, I continue to recommend the great IQ filter wallet- Monero GUI.

The GUI wallet is probably responsible for Monero's high node count

Perhaps all of the merchants / services dealing with the user complaints from Monero GUI users, could perhaps fund some development to fix the UX issues in GUI.

or technical

I haven't personally experienced sync issues

Rucknium[m]: 100%. There is a massive jump in computer literacy required to run a CLI node.

<Rucknium[m]> "The GUI wallet is probably..." <- So once Feather includes a local node module then it's gg.

Maybe its the simple and advance options that confuses people?

* includes a built-in local node

<cryptogrampy[m]> "mymonero is even easier for mass..." <- Feather works better than mymonero. Feather doesn't upload your view keys.

Alex|LocalMonero: XKCD in 6 months: Alex now has another stream of users with sync issues

Feather does however tell 10 different nodes where the tx came from

cryptogrampy[m]: Yeah except Feather is smart enough to know when it's not in sync and to fallback to a properly synced remote node while the local node is syncing.

nono

Bootstrap mode is default got gui iirc (?)

But bootstrap uses random dark alley nodes

Its not "feather" that is good. Its monero core code being iffy.

gui cant use some hacked in feature

Gui should be using the core code. Gui cant use polyseed unless polyseed is in core repos

Feather is not the best official implementation. Its works better because it does a lot of unofficial tricks and doesnt use official methods

Feather is, in part, "a testing ground for potential core features". But unless all of feather features are pushed to core, its a non standard implentation

Even the way change works is or was different in feather

Tobby promised (maybe) me polyseed to core

This ccs yaya? Lol

Without feather code coming over, its all noise. If monero doesnt support polyseed, polyseed cant even be recommended yet feather allows you to use it

Would be great to say "feather is official!"

but its not

polyseed isnt official, and many many other tweaks arent either

Update getmonero.org to show for the desktop:

1. Best consumer-grade desktop wallet: feather

2. Reference implementation desktop full wallet: GUI, CLI

simple as

This way everybody's happy, no?

Best for who? the merchant tech support team?

everybody is never happy

can't please that guy

Best for the average consumer who needs it to just. work.

Alex|LocalMonero: > <@alex:agoradesk.com> Update getmonero.org to show for the desktop:... (full message at <libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/do…df5b93b06cb412d5d2007af3de19f5dce2d>)

And cannot be recommendd officially, neither should mymonero btw

Yeah. But for that, feather needs a version that follows core implentations

you could maybe make a table of categories and place wallets into buckets

People should run nodes

Stripped of polyseed, difference change differ3nces etc

OR tobby or someone else needs to pr the code to core

"bitcoin core = there is no second best / you run a local node and you will be happy"

its not consumer quality if its using seeds that are incompatiable with evrythinf

Its not good for consumers if tobby decides to change which account the change goes to

That was an idea but went nowhere

didn't the polyseed code already change in feather? wasn't it like a different amount of words before

Becsuse erc wants to just yolo list scam wallets

pre-polyseed polyseed

yea

endogenic: yeah we should make one of those tables the shitcoin privacy tokens always use. and feather will have all the green checks and gui will have all red x's

Its 16 words, not 14 like polyseed v1 or whatever

we could also have a localmonero-approved line in the table

and an ofrnxmr-approved line

hahaahahh

someone's going to dig out that polyseed v1 in 10 years

ngmi

i mean it's not a terrible idea

ofrnxmr: just as a hypothetical, if I were to fork Feather and remove all the non-standard stuff you would be in support of the proposal?

"im going to bed in like 10 minutes and i have to recommend something to fix a users problem -line"

upvote and downvote and review page for wallets

Alex|LocalMonero: Yup

Alex|LocalMonero: can you keep the reddit and ccs stuff in the hypothetical fork

Not sure reddit will work anymore with their big API plans

But id be happoer is tobby pr'd to core

Polyseed isnt a feather only feature and needs to be implemented to further remedy the burning bug

those are my favorite things about feather tbh

Also, feel free to post hypothetical gitea repo url so i can add some feature requests (hypothetically)

And the differences with chslange etc, instead of jus strip, how about we figure out why tobby made changes and make thrm on our side if it makes sense

Otherwise scrap it

s/chslange/change/

feather avoided a doxxingdns leak for a year before i noticed it

feather had noticed slowdowns with syncing and disabled the code. But again DIDNT notify core repos..

A year later i notice all wallets, except feather, are doxxing uses

virgin feather wallet vs chad simple mode (bootstrap)

Tobby fixes it in like 20 minites -_-

I actually really like feather, but I point at my own nodes

my issue with feather is that feather has a lot of nice features and fixes that we dont hear about. Cant ever be official like this

Feather needs, for example, ability to set a trusted node (i think missing right now)

And monero-project repo nerds polyseed

I just don't want anyone to think I'm talking shit about it. I also think it's great we have a wallet out there that does these experimental things and exists outside of 'Official' monero repo / luigi1111's ever reaching tentacles

Theres top much disconnect between feather code, when, i agree, a lot of feather could be the reference

* Theres too much disconnect between feather code and monero-project repo, when, i agree, a lot of feather could be the reference

Same same cryptogrampy: . Feather is fast and super easy to use. Heck, it even closes reliably 😫😆😆

But it isnt a replacement for gui

Alt

Like plowsof

ofrnxmr[m]: see- these are bugs that could be fixed

it's been almost 2 years

And its been in polyseed for over a yr(?)

Im pitchforking haha...

Tobby ccs - all i damn care about is do polyseed please

just learn c++, just learn qt, just learn how to fix the gui they said

i'm 85 years olds. I'm a simple man that uses the localmonero wallet for my hotwallet

Its been like 9 months of ccs where ive asked repeatedly

I helped yolo merge his last ccs and im expecting polyseed 💢

Next tome i want milestone 1 polyseed milestone 2 hobbies

Feather is greaaat. Stop diverging and bring the codebase up/down?stream pls

anxiety

But guess my restore height is fun

<cryptogrampy[m]> Alex|LocalMonero: can you keep the reddit and ccs stuff in the hypothetical fork <<>> feather has reddit links? o_0

```

We chose not to show the primary address by default, because it's confusing to users what the difference is between the address starting with a '4' and the addresses starting with an '8'. Also, at the time subaddresses weren't universally accepted by merchants (which lead to address reuse), so only showing subaddresses gave users a push to contact their merchant to accept subaddresses.

```

example from recent feather chat

<ofrnxmr[m]> "```..." <- > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> ```... (full message at <libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/do…5cc65fba47fe67b6934446946c9e16de0a9>)

No they didnt

You need address 00 for mining

The next questi(n is why cant i solomine

Which is also commented on by tobby in the same chat

its a design choice that conflicts with core code

Eithrr pr it or its inccomptible

Is it a good directi(n? Yes

But its as m3ssy as shoving everything into txextra

To clarify, I meant the right decision for a mass adoption wallet.

why doea tobby have to ddeal with the no mining and incompatibke addr?

Because of tzxtra and sub`ddresses not being consensus

So labelling it doesn’t give it away?

stack doesn't show the primary address, only subaddresses

Censorship!

ship sent

My dad is opening up a restaurant im gonna try to have them accept monero

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JOIN THIS MUC NOW

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ihatexmppwithallmymight[xmpp]: share.conversations.im/ihatexmppwit…/4KkSnzqFdjTk6TFl/th-2687726548.jpg

<Alex|LocalMonero> "We recommend use feather instead..." <- Feather makes things easy! Is it possible to make a local web wallet via cli wallet-rpc? I agree official gui is too hard for normies.

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hm sorry about that, xmpp bridge removed for now

Lil Api