<3​21bob321:monero.social> Sunday morning

<v​oidrun:matrix.org> Gm

<v​oidrun:matrix.org> Buy on kucoinim if u ok with kyc

<v​oidrun:matrix.org> Buy on kucoin if u ok with kyc

am I only one who thinks that Cake Wallet is bad for Monero?

they do everything to get more users, adding more coins just to appeal to more people.

their have no Monero like mindset in general

Seems like they would remove monero support for 1m users (seems like)

I just want polyseed supported wallet with background sync

It's a company. They're squatting monero.com and tried to extort the community. They're after money like most other companies.

If they become too much of a user share though, that'd be dangerous. They have their own nodes, and monero's just not designed to offload your privacy to a third party.

It's the old convenience vs privacy/security thing again. At least they've not gone scammer.

It's a bit like cloudflare too. Even if you're not MITMing people for profit, you're also a target for compromise by those who want that data. So as long as you're a small % it's alright, but if you become large, you're more and more at being a way to "break in", whether you want it or not.

That also applied to mymonero.

When you have a security mindset, you ask "what can be done with it", but most people just ask "what is it doing".

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> x.com/sethforprivacy/status/1904678033757532262 they also advocate against monero native solutions and are selective in who they support to control mind share

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> I also still dont understand why they had to hire "compliance" people while building a self custodial wallet

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> x.com/sethforprivacy/status/1904678033757532262 they advocate against monero native solutions and are selective in who they support to control mind share

for now, will use non-cake wallet control node in the cake wallet I guess

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> milksad.info/posts/research-update-9

<3​21bob321:monero.social> No competition required

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Better to put all our eggs in one basket

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Are these "compliance people" in the room with you now?

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> I advocate for the solutions that are most effective and most useful to growing merchant adoption.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Nearly 100% of merchants who want to accept crypto payments natively already use BTCPay, and none of them would want to run a separate piece of software for Monero alone.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> I have direct lines of comm to nearly every Monero merchant out there who has any scale, and all barely use Monero as it is because even adding Monero to BTCPay is a high barrier of entry for the average merchant.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Wasting Monero community time and resources to build Monero-only merchant tools that no one will use irks me, so I advocate that our time goes to useful tools like BTCPay which already have massive and growing adoption.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> I love competition, and regularly shill Monerujo and Feather to people as fantastic solutions with differing approaches.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Never

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> We have that today 🤷‍♂️

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Incredibly disingenuous claim, sad to see you make this.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> We offered multiple ways to hand off the domain to the Monero community, none were accepted and the only one that seemed workable just offloaded it to another company who wouldn't give any guarantee they wouldn't abuse it down the line.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> The expectation that Vik would donate $300k for a domain is insane, and we have never "squatted" the domain, instead clearly directing people to the main Monero website and offering tools + explorer that don't exist elsewhere.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> It's this kind of conspiracy-theory bullshit that drives everyone out of the Monero community eventually, it's incredibly frustrating to see, and especially maddening to see someone I respect as much as moneromooo being a part of the problem.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Cake Wallet (and Vik himself) has done more for the Monero community than most people will ever understand or see, and yet we constantly have to fight this asinine idiocy.

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Domain park it

<3​21bob321:monero.social> No one gets it

<3​21bob321:monero.social> No domain for you !

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> So it's better to waste $300k than direct people to Monero-only tools, main website, and the largest Monero-only wallet

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Lmao

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Dunno where this has come from

<3​21bob321:monero.social> We like to waste money here so yeah.

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Currently gf is accruing interest

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> A grave mistake where Vik personally made every user whole from his own wallet, and one that has of course long-since been corrected.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Outside of the fact that we're by far the largest Monero wallet, spend extra time publishing a Monero-only version of Cake, are constantly pushing the boundaries of what's possible for Monero, constantly onboarding merchants and exchanges to Monero, and are getting Monero in front of 500k users, yeah, no Monero mindset!

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> One of the reasons we will always allow you (and continue to improve) to use your own node, plus always be 100% free and open source is so you don't have to blindly trust us with anything.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Personally, I appreciate cake wallet work, just gonna say Seth For Privacy *In bocca al lupo*. Believing in BTCPayServer is a thing (i do too, because of popularity and reach it provide), but qualifying metronero as uneeded is... let's say it wasn't really elegant, especially since it has community support.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Obviously you are free to think that, but it was obvious with this wording people were going to be concerned by it

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Unneeded does not mean it's not a "cool" project, it just means I view it as a pointless venture considering the state of the space today, and from hundreds of hours spent working with and onboarding real-world merchants.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Of course not everyone has to agree, but I'm not sure why saying "we should focus on BTCPay" causes conspiracy-theorists to lose their minds

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Of all of the merchants I work with (who are all of the major Monero-supporting merchants) none of them would want to run and integrate a standalone Monero tool for payments.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Not to mention the amount of effort to get something like it across the line with proper support for all major eCommerce platforms etc. is monumental.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> It's just one of those things where the Monero community thinks "we can do it best in-house" but is out of touch with the reality we're facing -- very few merchants know about Monero, and those that do already use BTCPay.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Improving our BTCPay support is a drastically better use of time and resources, as it means that Monero acceptance becomes easier and more feature-rich for thousands of merchants with the click of a button, no extra marketing etc. necessary

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> I've commented on this at length before, I didn't expect a single sentence to trigger "cake wallet bad" immune response somehow, especially when it's my own personal tweet XD

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I agree with your views. My point is just that explicitly placing yourself against a newborn project was not a good move. Also I don't care about cake wallet criticism they are off-topic.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Understood, and appreciate the feedback :)

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> you come across as arrogant and out of touch. Maybe you think because you have 30k followers on twitter that you are better than us and can tell what is a waste and what isnt. While you spent your time carefully crafting your image, others spent time writing code. You didn't look closely at the details of the work that you arrogantly dismissed as "not necessary".

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> What does my follower count have to do with this lol

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Just as you do, I have the right to speak freely about what I think is best for Monero.

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> sadly yes. your predecessor "worked in compliance for 2 years" before vik proudly "poached him" 🫢

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> I've dedicated thousands of hours to helping improve and grow Monero for a grand total of 0 XMR, because I believe in the mission of Monero.

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> oh yeah everyone who disagrees with Mr important is a conspiracy theorist :D

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> And is he on the Cake team right now?

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Yet again you're misrepresenting what I said.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> How many merchants have you onboarded? How many hours have you spent maintaining and improving Monero support in BTCPay? How many thousands of people have deployed Monero nodes and BTCPay support for Monero due to your guides?

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> I was insulted when I wanted to hear a clear answer to that question. He mentioned "that he is still helping with things here and there at the time". So you tell me lol

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> I only speak this way because I have real-world, actual experience working on this for years, and have seen what matters and what doesn't for merchant adoption.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> No, he is not on the Cake team in any capacity, paid or otherwise.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> He is of course still a friend of mine and someone I respect, but he has no sway in decision making or direct input to the Cake Wallet team FWIW.

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> what do you think about moonstone research and patent pending chain analytics tools sold to law enforcement?

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> I think they're a net-negative and I actively oppose his preferred line of work, and have had many lengthy discussions to that effect with him over the years.

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> do you think it would be good to have someone like him coordinate grants funding orgs on privacy focused projects? If you werent friends before, would you seek to become friends with people in his line of work?

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> If he was the one solely in charge of it, no, I would think it was not good. But that is not at all how MAGIC works, and much of the output of MAGIC has proven to be extremely beneficial.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Additionally it's all non-profit and donations-based, so if you don't like it, just don't donate 🤷‍♂️

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> If people want to see MAGIC take a different route than they are now, they should apply to join the committees and be an active participant.

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> i dont think so. You are really good with words. And you like to paint things a certain way. Instead of addressing critique directly and adapting your viewpoint you bolster yourself and attack "the other side". I am not even against btcpayserver, but there is no need for you to deem any other initiative illegitimate. Thats just not fair. Especially because you champion yourself as<clipped message>

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> a privacy advocate and use the standing that privacy projects have to build your platform and reputation. Its just not fair to dismiss the hard work of open source devs like this. You should acknowledge that and take a second look at this instead of doubling down.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> > illegitimate

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> No where did I say this, seems very disingenuous that you keep misrepresenting/twisting what I said.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> > Just use

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> @BtcpayServer

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> 🤷‍♂️

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> There's no need for bespoke, Monero-only offerings like this.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> That's it, that's the tweet.

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> "ust use @BtcpayServer

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> 🤷‍♂️

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> There's no need for bespoke, Monero-only offerings like this."

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> "just use @BtcpayServer

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> 🤷‍♂️

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> There's no need for bespoke, Monero-only offerings like this."

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> I didn't campaign for no one to build it, use it, or fund it.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> I said my opinion publicly, and got crucified along with Cake lmao

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> okay there is no need for seth for privacy just follow some other yapper

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> And I'm the one attacking?!?

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> > use the standing that privacy projects have to build your platform and reputation

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> You are literally stating that my lifes work is purely for my own profit.

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> not cool

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> > Its just not fair to dismiss the hard work of open source devs like this

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> I didn't "dismiss" the work, I said that I don't think it's useful right now when there are better options already adopted.

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> yes. you leech reputation from open source devs. and now you want to play the gatekeeper and say what is necessary and what isnt. Shitting on other peoples hard work while you are just yapping

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> not cool

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> The Monero communities continued to desire to roll our own tools when great options exist, for the same blind maximalistic reasons that we denigrate Bitcoiners for, is incredibly upsetting, has burned hundreds of thousands of dollars, countless hours, and burned out countless community members for no reason.

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> no. look at the details. the features are not the same

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> OK, this convo is clearly pointless. I never "shit on" anyones work here

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> this reductive bullshit view is harmful

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Did I say they were?

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> and holds us back

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Have a good one, remembering clearly why I divorced myself from this part of the Monero community.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> As bad as Bitcoin maxis, just with a different ideology.

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> in the fucking tweet. read it again. you said there is no need for this just use btcpayserver. you think its the same, but it isnt

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> reductive nonsense view.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> You clearly are struggling to read what I say.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Have a good one, spend some time re-reading what I wrote.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Happy to engage with anyone else on the topic, just @ me :)

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Btcpayserver core itself is shitcode, it's really not about who is behind what.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I hate C#

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Have you looked at v2? Have you run it yourself and talked with other merchants who do?

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> What will all of the merchants who want to accept Monero and Bitcoin etc. use if we focus our efforts outside of BTCPay?

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> It is absolutely not a perfect project and has the myriad problems that come with any open source project that is not for-profit

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> no this has nothing to do with maximalism. In any case your point is more like maximalism. BTCPAYSERVER maximalism. you reduce everything and then claim its the same as the btcpayserver and there is no need for anything else. But that is just misinformed

<s​iren:kernal.eu> You're talking shit on a project that doesn't do Monero processing but relies on a microservice instead (MoneroPay) and has an end goal of supporting multiple currencies which won't be difficult at all.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> But it is still a great solution with broad adoption and good enough Monero support (with better support now build _by the BTCPay team_ and improvements being funded by the Monero community soon, hopefully).

<s​iren:kernal.eu> I run several instances for my customers including MoneroKon. I talk to merchants on a daily basis and administer their servers.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> I never "talked shit" lmao

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> What are y'all reading?!?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I love how everyone is at different temperature

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> So what do you recommend for all of the merchants who are Monero + Bitcoin etc? (which is the vast majority)

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Not really reading all the yapping tbh

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> I said "use the existing tool, don't build another one that is Monero-only"

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> How in the world could that be construed as "talking shit"

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Means nothing, not like you researched the project itself when you were like "just use BTCPay, no need for monero only solution'

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> What, exactly, is your issue with what I _actually said_?

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Not what Spirobel invented

<s​iren:kernal.eu> It's not Monero only

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> thats cool

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I thought it was monero only

<s​iren:kernal.eu> And you're suggesting people stick to garbage instead of developing alternatives. Even bitcart is better than BTCPay.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> There is zero mention of other cryptocurrencies in their MAGIC grant application or website.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Where can I see that it is not Monero-only?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> And of course Bitcart is python

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> It only mentions Monero, has Monero in the name, and is built on Monero-only tools

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> it had to be shit language

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> don't know about the last part but the first two is what made me assumed it was monero-only

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> I read through everything they linked to and wrote, nothing mentions support for anything but Monero, and all underlying tools are explicitly Monero-only.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Maybe just don't yao

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Maybe just don't yap

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Even their original CCS proposal doesn't mention any support for other crypto like Bitcoin:

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/353

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Please share if there is somewhere that mentions that they will be supporting _at least_ Bitcoin.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Good convo lol

<s​iren:kernal.eu> We mentioned this to the committee, on our MoneroTopia talk and on Monero Talk.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> And yet it isn't in writing literally anywhere, and you're upset that I didn't listen to multiple hours of podcasts on the topic before commenting?

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> even aside from bitcorn or no bitcorn the feature set just isnt the same

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Your official proposals don't mention it, which makes me think that it wouldn't happen anyways.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Maybe if you understood software dev and web apps you could infer that it's not difficult to introduce other currencies into this project where Monero isn't part of its core

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Perhaps that's a reason your proposals failed, as there is very little demand for Monero-only merchant usage, but very high demand for Bitcoin + Monero at the very least.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Is your whole team just intentionally antagonistic and hostile?

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> You're mad because I didn't assume you would do something you explicitly didn't include in your official proposals.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Hm I'm mad?

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Clearly

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Lol

I think cake participate in monero movement, their wallet is pretty good

oh sorry, chat didn't sync for 3 hours

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Monero remains and always will be a core focus for us

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Glad to see others appreciate it in the Monero community!

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Literally yapping

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> lol, y'all are a fun bunch

<e​longated:matrix.org> Fyi I am from team monero

<e​longated:matrix.org> Yes because how could you not list his favourite coins

<e​longated:matrix.org> Sure it’s a good product

<e​longated:matrix.org> We are poking you, not cake but you are in a bad position

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> What, exactly, is my "bad position"?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> look at the rate for the btcpay maintenance ccs vs metronero

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Between btcpay, moneropay/metronero, bitcart, bitrequest, i'd argue that btcpay works just fine but jts ad modular as the other options

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> But isnt* as*

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Can we add a $RCE module to btcpay

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> btcpay works, sure. But so do the others, and bitcart has been used by monerosupplies and is in use by servers.guru. servers claims they use bitcart because of how much better the ux is

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> My argument has never been "BTCPay is the technologically superior option for Monero-only merchants"

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> The argument is that BTCPay has broad adoption and rapidly growing userbase, already has Monero support, has built improved Monero support themselves for free, and has a clear path forward via Monero community members to get critical missing features and improvements.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Re supporting multiple currencies, honestly, supporting transparent coins as a payment method is negligent behavior imho.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> say that to north korea

<s​iren:kernal.eu> And as far the transparent coins go, BTC is the shittiest option both for the seller and the buyer

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> NOOOOOO I LOVE MY 300$ FEES AND 900 HOURS CONFIRMATION TIME!!!!!!

<e​longated:matrix.org> Not liking development of monero only tools

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Broad adoption is still miniscule when zooming out. "were still early". And as being early, i dont think we need to throw all support behind a solution that is a 6/10, just because its a "first mover" and supports coins that cant be used reliably, and has LN vulnerabilities every few months

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> That is a view I fundamentally disagree with, but a valid one nonetheless :)

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> And why I imagine a good, Monero-first solution will eventually be developed no matter my opinion, which is fine!

<s​iren:kernal.eu> No big company who needs scaling will deploy it. For that to happen it needs a total rewrite.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> And why I haven't gone out of my way to push against any of these specific proposals, merely said multiple times in multiple ways that I think the more valuable thing is improving BTCPay support.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Thx god we have vibe coding for rewriting it

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> the xmr-pos, moneronodo, monero-atm,

<s​iren:kernal.eu> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…/kernal.eu/RCMOuPKMgWylmipYhFXaGUzI

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Improving btcpay _costs_ 3.5x as much as creating a better solution

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> A btcpay plugin vs moneropay+metronero+xmrpos+nodo =

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> There are no better solution proposals right now

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Metronero closed their own, where are the others?

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Additionally improving BTCPay support for Monero impacts nearly 100% of existing Monero merchants at scale, and allows simple onboarding of many more.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> metronero had a magic proposal that was rejected a couple days ago

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> I'd argue that's easily worth 3.5x dev for a new project, as that new project then will also need to spend many, many times that marketing, evangelizing, integrating e-commerce platforms, etc.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Yeah but we each didn't have a say in that

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> bitcart has never requested funds. Xmrpos raised ~5kusd.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> BTCPay proposal is CCS

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> And if someone can do the same work for less, let's see it 🫡

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I'm not saying we shouldnt improve btcpay. I'm saying that the costs are 3+x what competition, arguably better solutions are

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Improving btcpay _costs_ 3.5x as much as creating a better solution. We're not asking 3.5x.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Again, there is a massive, massive mistake here

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Better tech != Better choice

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Hahaha what

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> That's a classic mistake that has ruined and wasted massive amounts of time and resources

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> and that is pitting apples against oranges when both can exist and are valid.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Have yoh read the milestones? Its misrepresented and needs to be modified to reflect reality

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Zcash has had better privacy tech than Monero for years, but it's not the better choice regardleu

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Zcash has had better privacy tech than Monero for years, but it's not the better choice regardless

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> There ware way more things at play than just the best language or modularity

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> catastrophizing much

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Nilestone 1 is like "duplicate the work that has already been done, like create a ci pipeline"

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> just reading through the milestones you can clearly see the btcpay proposal wasnt written to be based in reality

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> should we improve multiwallet support? Sure. Should we make use of lws? Possibly. Are these the main focuses of the ccs? No.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> the ccs says "this is because btcpay v2 doesnt work with monero", which is false

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> napoly seems to have never used btcpay (or a monero node), since he doesnt understand (even from his old pr to add remote nodes) that btcpay requires a specially configured node

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> maybe the proposal needs to be rewritten ...

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Ie, the node currently needs --block-notify flag configured to send a command to the btcpayserver, and nodes require zmq ports open for use with lws

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> or do you think it can be changed to be more based?

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> (in reality)

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> yes

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Deverick said he'd change it but i havent seen any changes

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> it seems like your feedback was the only one that was more grounded. maybe once these issues are addressed the proposal can just move forward

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> or be closed and rewritten if they think thats the better approach

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> The OP there is clearly out of date now that BTCPay folks did a lot of the work for free

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> the discussion quickly dissolved into payment gateway WWE

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Definitely needs to be updated.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> anyone wanna play mario kart ?

<e​longated:matrix.org> So it will be added in cake under your management 😅

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> BTCpay did the work _before_ the ccs was opened

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Which was why the ccs is in limbo.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> When it was noted (in early comments), the proposer ignored/disregarded. 🤷‍♂️

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Huh?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Seth For Privacy my monero.com wallet is super outdated #bringBackFdroid

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> huh akshually fdroid is super insecure and arrogant and want to hack you by their incompetence

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> so said lord micay

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Just fdroid.stackwallet.com

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> and you're too stupid in security so you must comply, you must trust lord micay, daniel is our savior

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Accressent or Obtanium sir!

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> accrescent*

What dishonesty... again...

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> oh hi servers.guru , hi moneromooo

Not squatting ? It's a verifiable fact (or was, I assume they still have the domain).

<s​iren:kernal.eu> They're still squatting

<s​ervers.guru:matrix.servers.guru> Bitcart is awesome cannot complain!

<o​cean:nope.chat> wew new vocab unlocked

Donate money ? NOBODY asked them to buy this for us. It was their own commercial decision in the first place. They thought we would not see it as hostile. We're not responsible for their misstep here.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Isn't it wildly better that we hold the domain than that it inevitably gets held for phishing or scamming?

Though what pissed me off so much is their subsequent tries at various rationalizations. Still pissed now.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> ASS

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Awesome Secure Store

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> *co-signed by grapheneOS gang*

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Vibe coding idea

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Fdroid plz sir

Well, I assume nobody asked them to. I admit it's an assumption. A reasonable one I think.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> How, exactly, is our use "squatting"?

Jesus fuck..

Willful blindness of dishonesty here. RIGHT THERE.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Yeahhhh

Fucking pissing me off agian, I'm afk for a bit.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> new command unlocked

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Hi Noodz

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Ok...

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I am the god monerobull

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> you must say thx to me and good fortune shall fall on you

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> including monerobull monerobull

<s​iren:kernal.eu> No you're supposed to be me sighing at the slop takes

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> alright

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> # \* sigh \*

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> why is afk spawning in chat when moneromooo is saying he will be afk for a bit?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> COINCIDENCE? I THINK NOT!

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> oh nice the default profile picture change with the nickname

OK. Calmer now. For the record, since people have trouble understanding the blindingly obvious. Cake is not roughly equivalent to the vaguely defined "monero project". "monero" is the canonical name of the monero project. foo.com is one of the, if not the, canonical domain names for something called foo. Cake wallet owns, or owned monero.com recently.

Saying "we have a link to the real site" does not mean you're suddenly not squatting anymore, if I even have to spell it out.

Moreover, this was only added after I complained about the squatting.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> oh hi monerobull

I mean, if squatters in some building tell visitors where the actual owners live so they can find them, do you suddenly stop calling them squatters ? The mind boggles.

It's like this argument is just made to try and piss me off rather than with an actual belief in its truth.

*Think* about it rather than try to rationalize.

Cake spent some money, got pushback, and is now stuck with this sunk cost thing.

They chose to double down, and well, we're here now.

But then, you said "we", so I guess you might be fired if you admitted it. Still, you popped up to defend it so I dunno.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> What's your preferred solution, anything being on the table?

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> I am in no way attached to the domain or the associated Monero-only variant of Cake.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Nice rage bait

Cake not squatting. That is, if you go to monero.com, either a site maintained by the monero project, or no site. But most definitely NOT a site for a company that's associated to monero and tries to profit from this. Even the previous state was better (IIRC, some construction company ?) since it was not monero related so wasn't trying to profit from the association. Plus, they were prior AFAIK.

I believe this is a common sense position.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Who will build and maintain the new site? Who will pay for the domain and hosting?

No idea. Not me, and I do not care.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> There already isn't enough care or maintenance on the main site, seems a dead end to me.

My problem is just with the squatting. Cake inserting itself between my work (among many others) and people being interested by it.

And even more so with the dishonest string of arguments after I complained about it, trying to fob me off.

It's really a principles thing. I do not care for the rest. No site is fine by me (though might not be for others, that's not my point).

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> So selling it then is your preferred solution? Or Cake essentially donating $300k to sit on a dead site?

<e​longated:matrix.org> Yah you added shitcoins like zano decred so won’t be surprised with addition of ztrash arrr 🤣

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Seth For Privacy if you get rid of the monero-only variant of cake, i'd definitely stop using cake

<s​iren:kernal.eu> If only you weren't so out of touch

Cake decided to spend this because they thought they'd make more money from it.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> We're not doing that, but obviously name would have to change.

I do not ask Cake to donate. Again, not site would be acceptable, ethically.

Couching it as a donation is... spin. It's more like a write off.

They *chose* to pay for it. That money is what they thouht they could earn from it.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Moneromooo, what if some bad actor bought it instead?

It'd be donating a domain name. That is all. Or returning it to the registrar with a "never to be sold again" lock, though I doubt it's actually possible...

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> haveno.com comes to mind.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> This

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> It's not

Do you mean, would I be against that ? I would. Though I reserve judgement based on the details.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> If we sell it, it's easy picking for phishing or scams

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> donating the domain name is essentially a 400k donation

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> This

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> people can't host a phishing site for feather wallet

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Killing the domain name is essentially burning 400k on 1 domain, when there also exists monero.net monero.org monero.xyz etc

Again, they chose to pay this, and NOT with a view to donating it. With a view to profit from it.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> The choices are practically:

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> 1. Donate the domain, eat $300k+ costs

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> 2. Sell the domain name, risk malicious usage

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> 3. Continue on with current approach

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> monero dot org WAS a scam site, gone.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> mymonero.com xmr.mx probably xmr.com getmonero.com getmonero.dev and so on

Yes, there are lots more ways to make a scam site. That doesn't mean squatting becomes right. It is still wrong.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> If monero-project didnt purchase the real estate, it would have been purchased by somebody at some point.

Possibly. That would also have been wrong.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> And monero-project decided to launch with monero.cc (?)

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Monero.social etc

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> using feather wallet phishing site as an example i doubt montero dot com would last long

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Does core even own these domains? .cc and .social?

I think yes for the former. I think no for the second. I want to say sgp has the latter but I'm not 100% sure.

Well, owned at least. It's been a long while now.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Then you have monerobull who owns monero.town

I guess the underlying question is "do you have a problem with those ?". I do not know, but not yet. If they start hawking their own stuff, I might :D

Maybe there are already. I am not familiar with them, and I don't really care.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> None are as credible as monero.com, why mention all these?

If I become aware of them being a bit iffy on that, then I might be pissed off too. I'm not going to check them out because I do not like being pissed off by shit like that, there's enough to go on already.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> What's with the whataboutism and these alternate realities? This is clearly not the situation at hand. You have a for profit company who refuses to donate or point the domain to getmonero because there's no profit in it for them.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> It's as simple as that. No need for mental gymnastics.

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> old FFS forum.getmonero.org/20/general-disc…rg-domain-name-and-website-for-sale 😄

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Why would they? Its their domain

<s​iren:kernal.eu> To not be pests?

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> what about the twitter handle

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> And none of the other domains mentioned do it (aside from monero.cc)

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> What about @monero???????

I'm just thinking, Cake made that buy with a view of making more money back. That "donating 300k" line obscures the fact that they presumably got income from it. Maybe more than 300k ? I have no idea.

So, unfortunately, the more time passed, the more profit they make off our reputation.

Maybe at some point they'll "donate" and will still come out ahead, try to look magnanimous while having made more money than they would otherwise have.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> And helping the Monero community

By... having the cake wallet software ?

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Idk why you pretend like Vik hasn't done massive amounts for Monero, and that he also wanted to use the site for both our benefit and Monero's more broadly

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> By getting Monero in front of many, many more people, preventing malicious domain abuse, and pointing people to the main website and other Monero wallets

I am not pretending Vik hasn't done massive amounts for Monero. I do not know what Vik has done, except contributing to some funding IIRC.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Literally can't win lmao

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> This community is nuts sometimes

That is not a very honest wat to paint this (getting Monero in front of many, many more people, preventing malicious domain abuse, and pointing people to the main website and other Monero wallets).

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Should have just let a malicious actor buy it instead I guess 🤷‍♂️

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Seem to be unable to see the reality of the situation and just... Want to be mad I guess

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> @monero is helping to offset the reputation of canonical domains

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> and we're excited about it :D

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Sometimes?

That is only one possible other solution. As such, it is disingenous.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Your solution is donating $300-500k to Monero community

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> And still railing against us as then we still profited

<s​iren:kernal.eu> So do it

No. It is donating a single domain name. Which you value at 300k.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> It's value is far higher than that now, thanks to Cake and Vik

<s​iren:kernal.eu> There would have been a chance of it being short lived and the domain would be parked again

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Perhaps even cheaper than 300k

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> But there is literally no way to please you on this, seems a pointless conversation

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> As you said that even if donated you view it as malicious

There is. I said it above.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Three ways: donate it, leave it empty, set a redirect to getmonero.org

This is distorting really. Oh well.

<e​longated:matrix.org> No just redirect monero,com to cakewallet domain; no need to make a site with your monero.com weird app name

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> 400k

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> And, like monero.org, the price wasnt going down. If anything, the price would have gone up

I think the difficulty here is I am arguing from ethics, cake from commercial incentives.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Nah, that's if a scammer bought it and operated it for some time

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> So, donate 400k+ to the Monero community

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> What...

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> How is it ethical to demand the only sane route be a community-forced 400k donation, and railing against them no matter what they do otherwise

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> And saying that EVEN IF DONATED you'd view it as having ulterior motives

The ethical route is NOT to squat. You decided to squat earlier. Now you balk at fixing it due to your sunk costs. It was cake's mistake.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> This is what I'm referencing

Can you explain "EVEN IF DONATED you'd view it as having ulterior motives" please ?

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Around and Round we go

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> I just did

Then, let's make it clear, maybe I misspoke somewhere:

If Cake were to transfer ownership of monero.com to.... hmm... let's say the core team, I would not see this as having ulterior motives.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> This:

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> > <moneromooo> Maybe at some point they'll "donate" and will still come out ahead, try to look magnanimous while having made more money than they would otherwise have.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Maybe you can't see my quotes

I did see that. OK. Let me think aobut it a bit.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> We tried that, would have been held by another private company who wouldn't promise to not abuse it down the line

Yes, I still agree with what I wrote there.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Ok think we're just at an impasse then

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Gonna go afk for a while, have a good one

<e​longated:matrix.org> Even on monero.com you list cakewallet above monero only wallet 🤣

<e​longated:matrix.org> It’s really crappy use of monero.com if you want to just promote cake wallet

<e​longated:matrix.org> Just redirect it and get over it

However, it was a state of mind from whoever controls Cake. I think it would be a likely consideration from a commercial companu.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> oh, seth, mooo cant see what you reply to

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Have to copy the message in

No I had seen that line.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> > > <@m-relay:monero.social> <m​oneromooo> Maybe at some point they'll "donate" and will still come out ahead, try to look magnanimous while having made more money than they would otherwise have.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> > This is what I'm referencing

Oh nvm, yes, I see only new lines, not "backlinks".

Anyway, not really a ulterior motive, but more like a way to soften the blow. But yes, I see how it's a bit unclear. Language sucks.

I'll let you have this one :) There could be that particular ulterior motive, and after thinking about it, it would certainly be part of a consideration for that commercial decision.

Goodwill I think it's called. If I'm not confusing concepts...

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Just want to say before I step away that I have IMMENSE respect and appreciation for your work on Monero, moneromooo, no matter how we land on this specific concept

Thanks. It is common for people to agree on some things, and disagree on others.

Vehemently, sometimes ^_^

But I am remined of that quote... you can't make a man see a problem if their salary depends on it.

<s​ethforprivacy:monero.social> Just want to say before I step away that I have IMMENSE respect and appreciation for your work on Monero, moneromooo, no matter how we land on this specific topic.

I'm not claiming you're paid off fwiw, but you doid say "we" so you might be a cake employee ?

<s​iren:kernal.eu> moneromoo: his twitter bio says he is the vice president of cake wallet

ty

just catching up

TIL fob me off :D

.bbl

<3​21bob321:monero.social> I think for a while now

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Why did sith bring it up anywaya, I didn't see anyone complain about it recently

<1​7e:matrix.org> Can anyone tell me what the difference is between Cake Wallet App and Monero.com App? Context is Android.

<1​7e:matrix.org> github.com/cake-tech/cake_wallet/releases

<b​asses:matrix.org> says on the cakewallet.com website

<b​asses:matrix.org> >Looking for a focused, Monero-only experience? Monero.com by Cake Wallet is a version of Cake Wallet that trims down support to just Monero, but still enabling you to exchange XMR for other assets. All other app features are the same.

<1​7e:matrix.org> Thank you. I appologize for asking too soon, not having checked the website enough.

17e cake wallet supposed just about every crypto you can think of. Monero.com is monero only.

<f​areve:matrix.org> im thinking de-googling.i don't know if I should use lineage or graphene tbh

s/supposed/supports

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Use an iphone

<f​areve:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mxwhy would I use an device I can't configre to be used without my ID tied to it?massive risk

<c​ultparty:matrix.org> Is an encrypted wallet enough of a privatized relay to deposit bank funds to Monero untraceably?

<c​ultparty:matrix.org> Or is it more optimal to put the bank funds on a prepaid debit card to use as the wallet's cash source?

<c​ultparty:matrix.org> Lineage is ideal for offline / end-of-life Androids. Graphene is the most secure and privacy-focused OS for Android currently.