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br-m
<plaiwanone:matrix.org> GM
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br-m
<ravfx:xmr.mx> GN
-
Cindy
GL
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br-m
<frogmindset:matrix.org> i may someday have $1 worth of monero lol
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br-m
<kevino:tchncs.de> @frogmindset:matrix.org: Common 8kh is not that low.
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br-m
<kevino:tchncs.de> Maybe 5-6 days
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br-m
<frogmindset:matrix.org> i currently have 0.65 cents worth of monero lol
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br-m
<frogmindset:matrix.org> the day i finally get a full dollar worth of monero will be a good day lol
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br-m
<tr3-vr:matrix.tr3-vr.com> @kevino:tchncs.de: if you are on p2pool mini with blocks getting fucked by pubes then maybe longer
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plowsof
frogmindset stop
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br-m
<frogmindset:matrix.org> plowsof: huh???
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br-m
<frogmindset:matrix.org> wait what
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br-m
<frogmindset:matrix.org> i actually dont remember what i sent lol
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br-m
<frogmindset:matrix.org> @tr3-vr:matrix.tr3-vr.com: whats going on with the mini chain?
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br-m
<tr3-vr:matrix.tr3-vr.com> @frogmindset:matrix.org: orphaned by qubic
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br-m
<tr3-vr:matrix.tr3-vr.com> there was one where it was like 700% effort
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br-m
<frogmindset:matrix.org> @tr3-vr:matrix.tr3-vr.com: wtf is qubic and what is it doing??
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br-m
<rbrunner7> "wtf is qubic and what is it doing??" Just google "Qubic Monero" and read one of the many (mostly somewhat questionable, and often sensationalistic) articles about what's happening.
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br-m
<frogmindset:matrix.org> @rbrunner7: so basically it screwed over monero miners?
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br-m
<frogmindset:matrix.org> if im reading this correctly
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br-m
<frogmindset:matrix.org> so what happens now?
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br-m
<frogmindset:matrix.org> then again who knows if their claim of 51% is true
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br-m
<eddie:oblak.be> @frogmindset:matrix.org: ->
rekt.news/hashrate-heist-or-hype
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br-m
<frogmindset:matrix.org> ohh those jerks are why i kept losing my payout
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br-m
<frogmindset:matrix.org> makes sense
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br-m
<frogmindset:matrix.org> wow quibic has actually maybe the worst website i have ever seen
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br-m
<frogmindset:matrix.org> its like the generic tech bro startup website
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br-m
<frogmindset:matrix.org> seriously, go look it up
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br-m
<elongated:matrix.org> @frogmindset:matrix.org: Mystery sells , their target audience is different
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br-m
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br-m
<frogmindset:matrix.org> @elongated:matrix.org: i am concerned if people willingly follow the website that has zero info on it on what its about
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br-m
<eddie:oblak.be> Qubic is old news, they kind of lost their momentum, nobody cares anymore
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br-m
<elongated:matrix.org> @eddie:oblak.be: They are still a threat to monero
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br-m
<eddie:oblak.be> Keep mining, keep developing, keep calm
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br-m
<eddie:oblak.be> If they wanted to really destroy the network they would've by now. But they didn't.
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helene
they're mostly making a profit by abusing the network, is my understanding
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br-m
<eddie:oblak.be> they're delaying transactions and getting block rewards.. but it's hard to believe they are really making a profit tbh
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helene
they get more blocks than they should with their current hashrate overall, hence more coinbases
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sech1
Around 9% more blocks, by my calculations (taking into account blocks they orphaned vs their own blocks that got orphaned)
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sech1
But they're not making a profit. In the end this all is sponsored by their coin's emission and "investors buying" to keep their price from falling
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sech1
Oh, and also the qearn thing where miners lock their coins instead of dumping them on the market. Typical ponzi scheme
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helene
well, i would hope that at some point, they run out of money or cash out and stop :p
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br-m
<kevino:tchncs.de> helene: They will soon !
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nioc
their blocks have less txs in them so they get less than 9% extra
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sech1
They get 9% extra from block rewards. Fees are usually 1-2% of the block reward. So maybe 8% extra overall
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DataHoarder
sech1: you are miscounting the extra block they need on each run
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DataHoarder
I have been trying to quantify each "run" automatically to do per-run numbers
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DataHoarder
numbers are right, but offsets the expected profit
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sech1
Qubic blocks orphaned in last 1440 heights: 130/451, Other blocks orphaned in last 1440 heights: 168/1287
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sech1
so they lost 130 but gained 168 blocks, right?
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sech1
(451-130+168)/451=1.084
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sech1
maybe I can't count 168 as "gained"
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sech1
What matters in the end is how many blocks they have on the blockchain after all reorgs
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DataHoarder
basically for the 130 "orphan" they have
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DataHoarder
minus a few specific cases
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DataHoarder
for each "run" there they'd need +1
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DataHoarder
that is the implicit cost of selfish mining
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DataHoarder
to calculate how much they gained, as effectively, the block "spent" is not selfish, just a normal block
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sech1
The actual % should be counted if how many blocks they found vs how many blocks are still on the blockchain after reorgs
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sech1
*counted as
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DataHoarder
so 1 - (130/449)
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DataHoarder
reverse of percentage shown
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DataHoarder
around 71% of their blocks exist on chain
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sech1
right
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sech1
1440/0.71=2028
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DataHoarder
1440 is absolute heights
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sech1
so if there are less than 2028 overall blocks in the last 1440 height, they are losing rewards
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sech1
and there are less than that there
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DataHoarder
there are 1735 blocks
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DataHoarder
if you want to see full history, it's linked on site as well
blocks.p2pool.observer/fullplot.svg
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sech1
They would've gotten more XMR without selfish mining, but don't tell them that :D
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DataHoarder
that was always true :D
-
DataHoarder
but doesn't do marketing
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DataHoarder
minus specific timing races also the key part is the extra block they need
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sech1
So orphan rate 29.08% for Qubic, and 12.81% for others means Qubic is losing
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DataHoarder
of all orphans, the split is like 45/55% usually
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DataHoarder
qubic orphans are 45%, but they orphan the other 55%, but ofc that's only looking at orphans themselves
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DataHoarder
to orphan that 55% they need the extra block on top which is not counted as part of the run
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DataHoarder
the specific orphan blocks shows it directly, even while they cause more orphans on the other side, the actual rates are lower
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DataHoarder
you'd think that due to bringing difficulty up they also get some more, but, they are bringing difficulty up regardless
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br-m
<rbrunner7> These calculations go a bit over my head, thus my question: What must change until Qubic's selfish mining switches from "not profitable" to "profitable"? A bit more hashrate on their side?
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sech1
In the last 1440 height, they got 445-132= blocks (21.7%). If they didn't selfish mine, they would've gotten 445/1734=25.6%
-
sech1
So their efficiency is 21.7/25.6=
-
sech1
85%
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sech1
And it must be > 100% for selfish mining to be profitable
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sech1
DataHoarder can you add this calculation and the final number to the page?
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DataHoarder
it's not entirely correct, due to races and extra block, but hmm, I can add it
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sech1
It's just the last 1440 height as they are now vs what could have been if they didn't selfish mine (all 1734 blocks)
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sech1
Which means "what if all orphaned blocks weren't orphaned"
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DataHoarder
it's not perfect but gives a value
-
DataHoarder
Qubic blocks orphaned in last 1440 heights: 131/443 (29.57%) (total orphan rate 45.02%, efficiency 84.66%)
-
DataHoarder
Other blocks orphaned in last 1440 heights: 160/1288 (12.42%) (total orphan rate 54.98%, efficiency 105.28%)
-
sech1
Nice
-
Cindy_
sech1: tevador's upstream RandomX repo has a JIT compiler for RISC-V, i wonder if that could be ported over to xmrig
-
Cindy_
(in an unrelated topic)
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sech1
xmrig has quite a few modifications, so it's not easy to port. It will require a rework of many places in the code
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DataHoarder
sech1: I'll push these changes in a bit, rewriting that code now to also be able to show details on orphan blocks
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DataHoarder
given the explorers err :)
-
DataHoarder
Qubic blocks in last 1440 heights: 318 (22.08%), orphaned 122/440 (27.73%), total orphan rate 42.81%, efficiency 86.58%
-
DataHoarder
Qubic reward in last 1440 heights: 193.62/885.84 XMR (21.86%), orphaned 73.86 XMR, block average 0.607932799418 XMR
-
DataHoarder
vs
-
DataHoarder
Other blocks in last 1440 heights: 1122 (77.92%), orphaned 163/1285 (12.68%), total orphan rate 57.19%, efficiency 104.60%
-
DataHoarder
Other reward in last 1440 heights: 692.22/885.84 XMR (78.14%), orphaned 102.87 XMR, block average 0.618749716565 XMR
-
br-m
<kevino:tchncs.de> Q**bic just did a 9 block reorg few minutes ago !! 🙄
-
br-m
<ravfx:xmr.mx> I wonder if they limit themselves to 9 blocks
-
br-m
-
br-m
<plowsof:matrix.org> @ravfx:xmr.mx: yes cc DataHoarder , its written in their code. it would be detrimental to both projects should they invalidate transactions
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DataHoarder
they seem to have increased the buffer to 2 blocks
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br-m
<plowsof:matrix.org> afaict kevino is talking about an 8 block re-org
-
DataHoarder
they did an 8 block reorg. they could do up to 9, by having 10 blocks
-
br-m
<xorchi:matrix.org> c
-
DataHoarder
qubic also pads their blocks with useless txs for the rest of monero
-
DataHoarder
-
DataHoarder
here one block had two txs... but all of them were theirs
-
DataHoarder
-
br-m
<kevino:tchncs.de> @plowsof:matrix.org: Yeah sorry , the alternate chain was 8 blocks and they had to mine 9 blocks for longest chain
-
DataHoarder
6 decoys total in 3 blocks, only 6 monero valid txs
-
DataHoarder
in this case kevino they mined 10, released early
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br-m
<kevino:tchncs.de> So theoretically one can double spend if 10 block reorg happened and my transaction was left out ?
-
DataHoarder
there's two levels, one for the miner itself and other for anyone else
-
DataHoarder
your tx also goes back to mempool and can't double spend directly without the miner help
-
br-m
<kevino:tchncs.de> How do you identify decoy transactions ?
-
DataHoarder
however, global output index past 10+ blocks is the larger issue
-
DataHoarder
see Legend
-
DataHoarder
> Decoy transactions are not previously seen transactions on mempool.
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DataHoarder
for blocks incoming, I match to transactions not previously seen by nodes beforehand
-
DataHoarder
some of these txs can land in other blocks but you can identify explicitly qubic ones easier
-
br-m
<kevino:tchncs.de> The transaction stays in mempool for 72hrs before its dropped ?
-
br-m
<rucknium> DataHoarder: Maybe use a different term than "decoy transactions"?
-
br-m
<rucknium> Decoys already have a meaning in Monero
-
DataHoarder
Yeah, I couldn't find a better term
-
DataHoarder
hidden?
-
br-m
<rucknium> Submarine
-
br-m
<rucknium> Witheld
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DataHoarder
withheld lemme see if it fits
-
DataHoarder
see now, rucknium
-
br-m
<rucknium> DataHoarder: Looks good!
-
br-m
<kevino:tchncs.de> Just "unseen transactions" ?
-
br-m
<kevino:tchncs.de> How are they "withheld"
-
DataHoarder
The transactions are made, but not broadcasted
-
DataHoarder
They can take upwards of 30m-1h at times until they release them
-
br-m
<rucknium> If they are in a block that they broadcast, then they are broadcasted inside of the block, of course (right?).
-
DataHoarder
they broadcast them just seconds ahead
-
DataHoarder
or within block itself, yeah
-
DataHoarder
other times some take longer and are only observed later when querying monero nodes across the network for orphans they have
-
DataHoarder
alt blocks*
-
br-m
<kevino:tchncs.de> So they are no more in the mempool but included in blocks
-
DataHoarder
well, they release them later as well, but then those get flagged on early alt blocks
-
DataHoarder
basically we can see the tx existed at <T1> but only made available way later, <T2> across multiple viewpoints in the network
-
DataHoarder
specially when they mine a block that has the TX at <T1> and it's only when they attempt a reorg and publish a block at <T2> that transaction appears to the rest of Monero network
-
br-m
<kevino:tchncs.de> Have they modifed their nodes to not to publish blocks and such transactions to rest of the network?
-
DataHoarder
since the start of their selfish mining attempts, yes
-
DataHoarder
that's how they build the parallel chain (or just disconnect them from network)
-
stdmt19937
im new to monero
-
stdmt19937
should i go with monero cli or monero gui?
-
nioc
either, CLI is terminal ofc but works well
-
br-m
<basses:matrix.org> stdmt19937: monero GUI or featherwallet if want high anonymity
-
nioc
there is also feather wallet
-
stdmt19937
never knew about feather wallet
-
nioc
featherwallet dot org
-
stdmt19937
thanks!
-
br-m
-
br-m
<frogmindset:matrix.org> welp the scammer in my dm are back
-
stdmt19937
@br-m doesnt cli have anonymity?
-
stdmt19937
lol
-
stdmt19937
> The CLI wallet gives you the total control over your Monero node and funds. Highly customizable and includes various analysis tools, as well as an HTTP RPC and 0MQ interface.
-
Cindy
they're all the same
-
stdmt19937
okay well
-
br-m
<frogmindset:matrix.org> question, is there a way to block people on matrix? im pretty new to it
-
stdmt19937
br-m: what is matrix?
-
stdmt19937
whats that
