3 years later: CEX scams you

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @namenet:matrix.org: Probably anyday now/ coordinating with zcash pamp

<ravfx:xmr.mx> @namenet:matrix.org: it was binance...

<ravfx:xmr.mx> The one with the most volume right?

<ravfx:xmr.mx> mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/xmr.mx/oVKlFUJaMsUWHudiodQUDCAv.png (clipboard.png)

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @ravfx:xmr.mx: Maybe binance just wanted to liquidate evryone :D

<ravfx:xmr.mx> possible yeah

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Ive been liq'd due to what was obvious exchange shenanigans

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Beat the house too many times in a day on some positions with no real volume, and get liqd in a flash at 4am

<torir:matrix.org> Automatic liquidation is probably what caused the crash. It took a spark from USA politics and then the unstable overleveraged parts of the market collapsed.

<eddie:oblak.be> Finally dumped my remaining ZEC into XMR haha

<spirobel:kernal.eu> zcash monero debate on twitter is basically this youtu.be/b4fx6BjWEqk?t=26 Monero is zabulon and zcash is ishaq

<321bob321> Where am I nioc, ztrash room?

<monero.arbo:matrix.org> @torir:matrix.org: which is good and healthy

Dan Bob sad

hi

Hey

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> Hello!

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> Guys I wanna brainstorm an idea with you please give me your honest truthful opinion.

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> With all this Age verification nonesense today, it's gonna get harder to maintain your online privacy and security.

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> I was trying to think what we could do about it since sadly a lot of websites will no longer be able to keep functioning if they don't comply.

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> What if we develop a FOS, no KYC, anonymous Age Verification Service. Users verify their age ONCE with us.. no need to keep any data on them just, is this user account over 18 yes or no.[... more lines follow, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/vpz-kL4KallnNU9f ]

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> Trying to solve the Age verification problem by creating an age verification system seems a bit backward but it could be a good plan B solution.

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> What do you guys think?

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> Would you trust it/use it, would it be possible? etc?

soooo it's like what porn sites did for the past 20 years?

what's the difference, you added centralization and a point of failure to it??

Porn sites ask the user their age and assume they aren't lying. He's suggesting an age verification "foundation" that has a focus on user privacy and security. There's still age verification and all the problems that comes with. However, the upside is you don't have a for profit company collecting biometric/personal user data and doing god knows

what with it.

but how do you know that the user is of a certain age

without risking anonymity and KYC

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> You'd have to verify them once of course, but after that other websites that trust our foundation would verify their age via a cryptographically signed code from us, they wouldn't require any KYC but can verify your age.

Peer to peer identity verification with digital signature attestation. Go to a meetup with your government ID card, show it to a few people in your local community, then have them attest they saw you're over 18. Filters out 12 year olds that stole their parent's ID card and is somewhat private because the people verifying don't store ID

information... Or a number of other ways that could work :D

coconuts_are_not_nuts: you are describing the aftermath

not the process

Guest12: i think that's a pretty horrible idea

some people are like countries away, they're not gonna travel just to verify their age

100% agreed. I had the same idea a few days ago but thought it was kinda bad. At best you could send in your ID to a centralized foundation that verifies your ID, but that's just the same thing we have now but a non profit's doing the work. The real solution is to fight back against online identity verification because that shit's wack

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> Yea you're never going to be fully anonymous with Age Verification

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> But having a foundation could lesses incidents like the recent leak of government ID's from the Discord hack the other week.

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> Having a copy of your drivers licence on ever other website on the internet is an extra horrible idea. X-O

what if governments just have ring signatures

for each birthyear of citizens

Any foundation can have a similarly bad security posture as discord, if not worse. The problem is a lack of genuine security in computing not that a for profit company is doing it.

like fellow 2006ers can sign their request attesting that they were born in 2006

therefore of age

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> Ooooo!

<plowsof:matrix.org> is it bad that i want to KYC Guest12 to confirm they arent the same person as Coconuts

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> LOL

:P Not the same, I independently thought of the idea and came to the conclusion it was dumb a week ago lol

<plowsof:matrix.org> age verification can be fooled at least - theres some funny videos of people filming half life2 chracters in game

lol

you mean with garry's mod

<plowsof:matrix.org> thats the one

"move your head up"

uses the physgun to move their head up

without moving the camera

<plowsof:matrix.org> 🙂‍↕️ 🙂‍↔️

That's pretty funny

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> Fantastic!

the ideal solution involves the government, and i doubt they'll agree to ring signatures

because it doesn't give them the info they want on people :P

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> Yup exactally.

i wonder how many people are born in a year

and whether it provides a good anonymity set

Many millions I'm sure. So long as the system is global/regional, should include enough people to mix with, similar to a shared IP for a city

hahah global

man, there is gonna be so many disagreements

Yeah, that's true. Could probably have a system for the EU, one for the US&CA, one for Africa (they started an African intranet recently, check it out), etc The problem comes in when not all countries filter content, which is likely. France for example doesn't view nudity the same as US and wouldn't filter some content the US would deem filterable.

<spirobel:kernal.eu> @spirobel:kernal.eu: youtube.com/watch?v=UD7vn5jUjcU yitzhak looks so much like vlad lol I think its crazy they always try to paint us as the bad guy when we are definitely the more welcoming community. everyone is welcome and we are having fun. while they just spread lies and half truths :D

Guest12: so seperate rings for regions

still a very decent anonymity set

the problem is that governments will never implement this because it's KYCless

or at least, very infeasible to figure out who signed it

True, but you'd also not take into account someone that's 18 may have to wait a year to be "of age" where others can be verified a few days later due to birthdays being (unevenly?) distributed throughout the year. And as you point out, no way gov's are going to do this

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> Also if I was born in October say, would my age verification become valid on 1st January of the same year? Even if I'm still 17 for 10 more month?

I'm of the opinion if someone wants to access something online, they'll find a way. So major filters on legal content are at best an idiotic waste of money and at worst a way for some governments to control and suppress their citizens. Neither of which is a good thing.

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> It's obvious that the "protect the children" story is a smoke screen to normalise the giving of ID and make mass survailance even more intrusive.

Exactly my point. You're either making some 18 year olds wait 364 days or validating 17 year olds days or months before they turn 18/whatever age requirement is chosen.

you have to reduce the anonymity set down to the month

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> Yes or the day

nah

day is too much

If you're doing regional or per country births with daily or monthly signing groups, you're probably getting to the point you can be identified based purely off web traffic.

Think of the number of people you know in person that are interested in Monero and a few of your interests/hobbies and are born on the same year. With more internet traffic, you'd be able to easily identify people from the group with enough effort.

would you be able to reverse the ring signature?

that validated their age?

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> I think a solution would need to be as above board it can be so that website owners can use the service without any legal backlash. I think that most likely if our service allowed people through even a few days before their birthday, then the governments would have a reason to ban the use of our service.

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> It would need to be trusted by users and ordinary website's... It must allow website's to be compliant otherwise there's no point

<spirobel:kernal.eu> the "politicians" that push for age verification laws should be sent to the gulag.

<spirobel:kernal.eu> in all honesty, just ignore the laws

we'd probably need a non-profit that handles keys from countries all over the world, with either the government's approval or unofficially (ID verification with KYC)

and make up giant ring signatures for people

spirobel figured it out ^ lol

Not sure how difficult that'd be. One question I'd ask is what about people who are of age that sign and sell accounts for people who aren't of age? Are we to create new classes of crimes for this kinda thing? How are we to find the person handing out porn accounts if we can't tell who's signing them?

..... that'll always happen lol

like people giving their ID to others

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> `I know what you're saying but you can't expect legit businesses to break the law. They just won't do it.

so there's no KYC way of doing it?

KYCless*

Even if there were ways to get a subpoena-proof age verification way, it's against the whole point why they want it, so it won't ever happen.

But all the proposals I've seen allow unmasking people if the website and the age-assuring agency have kept logs and cooperate.

what about the ring signature then

I don't fully understand that. Would that be applicable here?

yeah, but a problem is that people could sign and sell 18+ accounts

without being linked to it

Yeah, that too!

The whole ida of online age verification should be encased in concrete, buried and never spoken of again.

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> Indeed

Agreed

agreed

What do you guys think about the thousands of Flock cameras being installed throughout the US?

Or... I guess we should move over to #monero-offtopic if you guys want to talk about other stuff

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> reflectacles.com

<coconuts_are_not_nuts:matrix.org> This

This is horrible, but not as much as the facial recognition system, since at least you can avoid taking a car.

For the glasses - iirc the effectiveness is dubious

Yeah, most only partially work against IR which is only useful if you're walking around at night. That and you look really weird wearing them. One problem is in many areas it's not really practical to get around without a car. And if it is, Flock's always a software update away from adding China-like facial recognition.

Yeah, this is what I've heard - the cameras don't all have their IR lights on, especially during day.

<merano:matrix.org> Test

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> What coins are you trying to swap between

<merano:matrix.org> What DEXes you suggest for swapping Monero?.. I use Fixed float

<merano:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: Xmr to usdt or viceversa

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> haveno

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Specifically "retoswap"

<merano:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: Yea, i've heard.. Tnx mate

<merano:matrix.org> Nodes on my Cake wallets takes too much time to sync... Do u have same problem?

<syntheticbird> cake wallet syncing performance is very random in my experience

<fijxu:nadeko.net> it takes a while with the public nodes listed there

<fijxu:nadeko.net> while using my own one it takes way less

<syntheticbird> even using my own the syncing speed is random

<syntheticbird> faster of course but it's not consistent

<merano:matrix.org> I have also tried to add new high uptime nodes but didn't change much!

<fijxu:nadeko.net> mine just synced 500 blocks per seocnd

<syntheticbird> @fijxu:nadeko.net: mine have never done that lmao

<fijxu:nadeko.net> took 3 seconds to sync

<syntheticbird> @fijxu:nadeko.net: stop flexing before i find you and blast you into the atmosphere

<fijxu:nadeko.net> LOL

<merano:matrix.org> I think it's related to Monero network not the wallet, right?

<syntheticbird> nah stack wallet has always been syncing faster and more consistently with the same node

<ravfx:xmr.mx> Does srack have background sync?

<syntheticbird> tf is srack

<ravfx:xmr.mx> Stack..

<kevino:tchncs.de> Monerflou background sync 🤌🏻

<merano:matrix.org> Cake has background sync.. Even when you close it up, it's running in background

<merano:matrix.org> How many of you are FBI employee?.. Lol

<ravfx:xmr.mx> I know about cake, was wondering if other wallet. Cake instantly win if one can open the wallet and spend without waiting forever

<syntheticbird> @ravfx:xmr.mx: no

<syntheticbird> it will continue to sync in the background, but it won't automatically trigger a sync unless you open the wallet

<merano:matrix.org> Sometimes cakewallet doesn't openup till you close the background activity from Task Manager

<ravfx:xmr.mx> I use it very rarely (only when I travel)

<ravfx:xmr.mx> But it always been reliable so far (I open it after 5 months and it's already synced yay)

<ravfx:xmr.mx> Would be nice to have the competition to follow on that specific feature

<ofrnxmr> No > <@ravfx:xmr.mx> Does srack have background sync?

<ofrnxmr> @kevino:tchncs.de: Not reallly. Monfluo just keeps the spend keys unlocked

<ofrnxmr> It works well, and the wallet doesnt get killed + stays synced, but the spend keys are left unlocked which is unsafe

<ofrnxmr> "background sync" uses the core functionality of monero, which uses the view keu

<kevino:tchncs.de> @ofrnxmr: Don't give your phone to random people while unlocked :)

<kevino:tchncs.de> > wallet doesn't get killed

<kevino:tchncs.de> > Is the main pro here

<ofrnxmr> @kevino:tchncs.de: Fhats not the point

<ofrnxmr> The point is that "background sync" (the feature) uses view keys

<ofrnxmr> All monfluo is doing is foreground sync

<ofrnxmr> Which works great because the notification prevents it from being killed

<ofrnxmr> But monfluo could implement true background sync, which would make it safe

<kevino:tchncs.de> Cake shows notification too when sycning aggressively

<ofrnxmr> Does it? It never did in my testing, but i haven't updated since they got rid of the monero theme

<kevino:tchncs.de> Doesn't matter whether it shows notification or not

<ofrnxmr> @kevino:tchncs.de: Yes it does

<ravfx:xmr.mx> Does not on mine

<ofrnxmr> The notification is what prevents android from killing it

<ravfx:xmr.mx> Yes

<kevino:tchncs.de> Cake just uses unrestricted battery

<kevino:tchncs.de> Which doesn't need it to give notification

<kevino:tchncs.de> Monfluo doesn't require to give unrestricted battery usage permission, so it shows the notification for foreground service

<kevino:tchncs.de> I don't think its related to how both sync .

<kevino:tchncs.de> mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/tchncs.de/…5ddb8f94a40d1977423660352274432.jpg (18496.jpg)

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @kevino:tchncs.de: It definitely is

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @kevino:tchncs.de: This notification is exactly why cake can stay running

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Without it, the os will eventually kill it

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Unrestricted battery = os will still kill the app

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Notification = app is always active / wont be killed

is this a loophole to not require the user to specifically enable "disable battery optimizations" for the app

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> pretty much

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> And it works reliably, unlike battery optimization

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Its why most chat apps that dont use google firecloud, have a persistent notification

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> And why proxy apps that arent running in vpn mode, use a persistent notification

<kevino:tchncs.de> Nice

<321bob321> So what happens to these wallets in 2027 ?

they exist

<321bob321> For andriod

they still exist

for EU people? probably not

How tf do you enforce this?

All I can think of is "selectively"

pressure google to ban monero wallet apps

<ofrnxmr> Or to ban all non-custodial wallets and ban sideloading / apk installs

Yeah, but then there are degoogled phones, as well as adb (which is exempt from even the planned enforcement).

<321bob321> Depends if they close source parts

I wonder what about ADB-disabled Google services

<gogo2464:matrix.org> Hey! I had lost my getmonero / uniswap account. I can not see my real account history. I had got 20 $ of money on to try. It is still 20$

<gogo2464:matrix.org> I have multiple accounts

<gogo2464:matrix.org> Do you have any tips to find the right please?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @gogo2464:matrix.org: no idea what account youre talking about

<gogo2464:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx My account where I put 20$ I am afraid about to loose it I still have it privaet key in my computer

<gogo2464:matrix.org> wrong one...

<gogo2464:matrix.org> I still have 0 XMR

are you saying you restored from a backup and your XMR is not showing up in your wallet and you expect it to?

because i think there is a need for rescanning in XMR if your backup is old

<weaverethan:matrix.org> Hey everyone. I'm having some trouble with my monero cold storage wallet. I was trying to sign a transaction offline and broadcast it from a view only wallet and i seem to have messed something up. I got an error about a double spend and now when i restore my wallet with the private spend key vs a watching only wallet there is [... too long, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/t6K1or4KLXlYZnps ]

<gogo2464:matrix.org> snake also I do not have the creation date of the wallet. Should I had to get back my moneros