<angled:matrix.angled.rip> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: huh this is interesting

<angled:matrix.angled.rip> oh cool there's like a crypto club near where I live, should go see whasup lol

<cosmos777:matrix.org> How to get other crypto listed in Retroswap/Haveno?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Request it on the listing repo

<gingeropolous> looking to stop paying annual fees for paymonero.com and payxmr.com . hopefully someone with a good rep wants to develop them and i can transfer.

<ravfx:xmr.mx> Question:

<ravfx:xmr.mx> Mining pool, is it safe to create a public pool and use a "local" public node that is widely used? I mean, it won't risk to make it slower for node user or make the pool slower because a lot of user use the node?

<ravfx:xmr.mx> No idea what zmq does but does it use that instead of rpc (and does monerod use a different thread for that or it stuff it in the easy to overload rpc threads)

<ravfx:xmr.mx> Yes : xmr.mx mining pool soon™

<milas900:matrix.org> @gingeropolous: What is should be about ?

<milas900:matrix.org> Guys question about Adam back ? He is sold right ? He looks like someone controls him now

ZMQ Monero pushes data to you

RPC you poll Monero for data

p2pool uses ZMQ and gets mining data and transactions or blocks as fast as monerod gets them compared to RPC

i have a question related to monero_wallet (rust)

the functions that scan for received outputs work on ScannableBlocks

the question is, how do you get ScannableBlocks?

is there a part of monero-oxide that can provide connection to a monerod node?

is kayabaNerve here?

<kayabanerve:matrix.org> Generally.

well since you're the developer i think, uhh

would you be up to responding? :)

<kayabanerve:matrix.org> There was monero-oxide/rpc to fetch ScannableBlocks. We'll shortly be replacing it with monero-oxide/interface though (now that the PR is approved).

<kayabanerve:matrix.org> Ah. Merged four hours ago ^_^

<kayabanerve:matrix.org> There's monero-oxide/interface, monero-interface.

<kayabanerve:matrix.org> monero-oxide.github.io/monero-oxide/monero_interface/index.html

<kayabanerve:matrix.org> The literal instantiation is monero-daemon-rpc and monero-simple-request-rpc.

oh, so very very very recent

good thing i asked now rather than 4 hours ago

:P

<kayabanerve:matrix.org> The PR has been around for a while and usable via its branch 😅 It's just only merged into main so recently.

kayabanerve: monero-daemon-rpc is just.. a lib.rs

i'd like to just read blocks from an existing monero node (C++ or cuprate or whatever)

i'm just dumb :P

i didn't actually look at the monero-oxide repository well

<marioob:matrix.org> github banned developers making porn games for children? What took them so long? > <Cindy_> 404media.co/github-ban-suspension-adult-modding-games-illusion

adult is written on the headline

and several times throughout the article

where did you get the "for children" thing from

<ufo808:matrix.org> lmao Illusion studio mentioned, I have installed one of their games on my windows dual boot

<ufo808:matrix.org> didn't know that github had many mods for this type of games

<marioob:matrix.org> mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/IrZqJnUYHyXRjJzZJMvCukGq.png (Screenshot From 2026-01-07 19-07-33.png)

<marioob:matrix.org> I believe this is what they call furry fetishism. I hope this is correct in english

<marioob:matrix.org> And I have seen much worse than this picture

you have to be completely retarded to use shithub to begin with - oh wait...

<marioob:matrix.org> I wish I never saw Naruto...not at that age.

"furry fetishism"?

the character in the pic is a human

"privacy coins" developers extensively use shithub-NSA while pretending to care about privacy

what did you eat today

are you intentionally being dumb :P

<marioob:matrix.org> Cindy_: I don't really know the terms/labels

Also what's wrong with furries lol

<eddie:oblak.be> LibDem: privacy focussed channels are plentiful on youtube. There's this thing called pragmatism ..

some people are very conservative :P

eddie - right, that's being a self-refuting clown who likes to pretend he's "pragmatic"

<eddie:oblak.be> you can perfectly download monero from private gitlab instance, github is just a build engine

If you're outside of Youtube exclusively and trying to get people's attention to how bad Youtube is, the effectiveness is questionable lol

<marioob:matrix.org> mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/bpFGiEihakBzCRLCeSTwmspT.png (london dildo butt monkey.png)

<marioob:matrix.org> BlueyHealer: you tell me please!

<eddie:oblak.be> @marioob:matrix.org: what, why, ..

what the fuck is that

<marioob:matrix.org> It's much, I know. Sorry.

i knew the NFTs gone down, but i didn't know they went THAT down :P

Is this one of the cases when you should be happy IRC doesn't have images?

yes

<marioob:matrix.org> you can still post links to images

<marioob:matrix.org> here it just make it easier I guess

Mari? Is it a Maribot member?

marioob are you complaining that shithub isn't retarded enough anyway? It's a complete shithole of course but you want even to engage in more censorship?

I mean "but you want them to engage in even more censorship?"

<marioob:matrix.org> If you want an answer in the way you asked the question: inapropriate things should not even have made their way there.

<marioob:matrix.org> The reality is they allow some things to happen in order to have excuse to do much worse censorship even on things completely lawful.

<marioob:matrix.org> I see this frequently happening in real world. Is called: fabricate a problem and get fat on selling the solution. If I am not mistaken, the same goes with github here.

<rbrunner7> "get fat on selling the solution". Well, at least with GitHub we did not yet enter that phase?

this is microsoft in general

they never change

so we have some random guy here whining because shithub isn't censored enough

there's no problem with shithub, except that it needs more censorship to "protect the children"

can't make this shit up

which TLA do you work for mario?

<rbrunner7> Frankly, I wouldn't change either if I was what, the 3rd most valuable company on Earth. Why should I?

I might've missed something, but wasn't the subject in question illegal/immoral?

censorship is immoral yes

BlueyHealer: github took down repos because they were adult games or mods of adult games

and also suspended their accounts

but let me repeat this again, shithub is anti-privacy weapon - that's the only thing that matters

without any prior notice

<marioob:matrix.org> glad I ditched them some years ago. Full on Linux now. Literally 0 big tech services I use. > <Cindy_> they never change

Ah, sorry, lost the logs for the upper part of the conversation.

Anyway doesn't seem like something I'm interested in researching, and not interested in this conversation either.

<plowsof:matrix.org> LibDem knows best and is here to punish us all for everything wrong in the world

I certainly know better than a bunch of feds whining about "porn" on shihub plowsof

there's this gem too microshit is the "3rd most valuable company on Earth" -- haha valuable?

<plowsof:matrix.org> make sure to abide by the policy of the irc network you are on at the moment or you will be censored libera.chat/policies

<marioob:matrix.org> I don't understand the reason for this personal attack. I am expressing my opinion and I do not force you to agree with it. And to be clear, I do not tolerate porn for any age. And I have a special kind of problem with child porn. It infects and corrupts human mind. > <LibDem> so we have some random guy here whining because shithub isn't censored enough

plowsof lolwhat - are you threatening me?

what is even going on here

Edgelords I guess.

LibDem: no, he's just telling you to not violate libera's policy

which is an absurd remark Cindy_

well, #monero is not above libera's policy

liberas policy is meaningless - just an excuse for censorship

then just get out?

<plowsof:matrix.org> like one of those wind up monkeys 😆

you don't wanna be like #monero-pools :P

they thought they were above libera's policy, then they got closed down for good by the ops

it can be "enforced" by them whenever they want by "interpreting" it

and the ops are literally here watching so like

LibDem: just to be clear, this isn't a free speech room. neither this nor -offtopic

I see - this is a room to whine about porn in shithub.

which is obviously aligned with "privacy coins"

and if I laugh at the nonsense then I am "violating libera's policy"

is that right plowsof?

we can have offtopic discussions without turning it into a slur competition :P

y'know, there are boundaries

it's not like "oh, you can't talk about this shit at all"

<plowsof:matrix.org> marioob posting images (circling relavant parts) and following up with dildo rainbow bear or something? clearly not meant for this #monero room

yeah that's pretty true

<plowsof:matrix.org> why not share some large projects using git(hub) alternatives and compare features offered?

<marioob:matrix.org> it went a bit sideways. With no intention. > <Cindy_> we can have offtopic discussions without turning it into a slur competition :P

<marioob:matrix.org> @plowsof:matrix.org: you have no option here to use content warnings like on mastodon. And that is public information. I saved it in case the deep state will take it down in future.

"Content of an explicit nature is discouraged and must consider the comfort and safety of others." - libera.chat policy

'discouraged'

so that's meaningless

lol I wonder where in their opinion the right to free speech ends, because judging by the... upload name, they seem to want to say absolutely whatever

<plowsof:matrix.org> patches can be submitted via IRC ... or even email, github provides alot of stuff and the juice seems to be worth the squeeze until they -delete our repos and arrest everyone- or some doomsday scenario - and in that case there are many people with local gits acting as backups (some are even hosting dedicated mirrors on other none github platforms) and the project lives on

BlueyHealer: ends at a k-line

plowof - oh you are a supporter of shithub-NSA - thanks for showing your hand - hilarious.

LibDem: no, it's not black and white

people can use github without supporting it

it's another form of submitting patches

<plowsof:matrix.org> thanks for reading my texts and sharing your summary, now then

people think this place is like a imageboard

they can just say whatever the fuck they want and upload whatever explicit content

<plowsof:matrix.org> LibDem please link alternatives / scenarios you are concerned about and we can see if they have been addressed in the real world already

plowsof: forgejo is working on federation btw

the hell do you mean

like activitypub federation, if this goes well, git forges can federate with each other

and then it would be a lot better than email or github

plowsof are you pretending shithub-NSA isn't the biggest NSA surveillance system tasked with surveil "software development"?

tasked with surveiling*

trust me, they can surveil software development even on a mailing list or fucking external git service

for example, some microsoft employees (executives i think) are subscribed to wine's mailing list

and?

i don't get what your point is :P

well that's your problem.

anyone can surveil a open source project, not just the NSA

google also does the same with invidious or unofficial youtube crap

.....

and what is google?

a big tech company?

again, can't make this shit up

sorry Cindy_ I'm not playing your little game

fai

fair*

Git forges can federate? Nice.

forgejo is still working on it though

<redsh4de:matrix.org> What about Radicle? peer to peer, nodes replicate repositories, uses Git

<pcre:matrix.org> Would you use git if it were structured like monero-wallet-cli?

that makes no sense

<pcre:matrix.org> Why?

<pcre:matrix.org> It does

<pcre:matrix.org> You could call monero transfer <URI> in a shell

<pcre:matrix.org> monero tx-proof --signatur <SIG> --message <MSG>

<pcre:matrix.org> git has a set of subcommands like git pull , git push, git clone etc. and command line options. --xyz

<pcre:matrix.org> I know you hate me because I speak the truth. That's why I don't want to push you too far. Please just spend 5 minutes looking into the UNIX philosophy.

<ofrnxmr> wut

monero reset --hard origin/master

<pcre:matrix.org> lol

<pcre:matrix.org> monero ui-reset --hard origin/master

<rucknium> git drain-wallet-without-password

<rucknium> AFAIK most database programs require you to enter into their own terminal to make changes, after you have been authenticated. Same with monero-wallet-cli.

monero rebase

<rucknium> Any empirical proof that Unix philosophy is better? Or is it just an empty slogan?

<pcre:matrix.org> @rucknium: This is a joke, right?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> No

<rucknium> No

No

<rucknium> Just because something sounds good does not mean that it is good.

<pcre:matrix.org> Please help me, plowsof

<pcre:matrix.org> A password is not an argument now. gpg is asking for a password if you want to sign something. > <@rucknium> git drain-wallet-without-password

<rucknium> IIRC, Unix philosophy says that programs should not require interactive input. Inputting a password is interactive. Or you can make it a command-line flag argument, but that's insecure because it's now in your bash history file.

rucknium: also arguments of another process are public to everyone else

including processes ran by another user

ENV arg!

cause even FD are not secret

<rucknium> FD = file descriptor?

yes

the ones in /proc/<pid>/fd/...

you can even inject stuff into fd/console in specific conditions

you can't access fd/ easily though

<pcre:matrix.org> So you think that if your system has been compromised, monero-wallet-cli would protect you in some way.

if you're another user

<rucknium> How do I get rid of the too many open files error? I get it a lot and I've tried to solve it without success.

rucknium: what program are you running

"too many open files" is usually a sign of bad programming

<rucknium> @pcre:matrix.org: It does because the wallet file is encrypted at rest with its password.

<rucknium> RStudio shows the error

rstudio?

roblox studio?

oh wait

no wait i'm dumb as fuck

yeah, not another user Cindy_, but you can trick programs

fdlimit, rucknium

<rucknium> Yes. Roblox Studio

you can get up to 64K easily

i feel like one of those 67 kids now

i know Roblox more than i know R

usually if you don't have that many files it means you aren't closing fd

i get the "too many open files" error with wine btw

wine compiled with ntsync

it opens waaaay too many FDs to /dev/ntsync and stops the program from reading/writing files

<pcre:matrix.org> @rucknium: For critical commands, you also need a password and/or hardware wallet under a bash shell.

how do hardware wallets work btw

is it like a security chip inside, and the program just gives TX blobs in, signed TXs out?

(with consent from user)

<rucknium> The hardware wallet has the actual signing key. The software on a computer passes a tx to the hardware wallet. The hardware wallet signs it and passes it back to the software.

i guessed that :P

<rucknium> The hardware wallet never gives the signing key to the computer.

that would make it useless if it did

it's similar to TPM or ARM trustzone

processing happens inside, and no secret goes outside the processo

processor*

<lmaofurries:matrix.org> @marioob:matrix.org: >I believe this is what they call furry fetishism. I hope this is correct in english

<lmaofurries:matrix.org> maybe if yall were more inclusive to the furries, then the monero project wouldnt be still years behind tech-wise:

<lmaofurries:matrix.org> monero-project/monero #421/commits/da6c47e734f4538cc47e63a5860f4b20abddcbc0

<lmaofurries:matrix.org> like literally how come we in 2026 and still no serai, still no quantum resistance, still no nothin

<lmaofurries:matrix.org> being all like luke dashjr up in this bitch, like "oh no, cant be doing nothing that the jeebus dont approve"

<lmaofurries:matrix.org> fucking retards stg

<lmaofurries:matrix.org> [... more lines follow, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/xZr8ntoKX1llblJU ]

<lmaofurries:matrix.org> also, videogamers literally be out here evading taxes since 2001

<lmaofurries:matrix.org> there's a whole videogamers market that is evading taxes, we been evading taxes way before monero yall fucking posers wannabes LMAO

<lmaofurries:matrix.org> monerochan.art/commissions/irs_spanking.jpg

>yall

references the comment of one user

one who i disagreed with

<rucknium> Signing processes that require high RAM or CPU are hard to execute on hardware wallets. AFAIK, Zcash still doesn't have z-address signing capability for hardware wallets, but I haven't checked that info in a few months.

 I would like to know about the estimated transaction fees that would be incurred for the following scenarios:

A miner is sending 0.6 XMR that was acquired in 1 transaction. The miner mined a block solo.

A miner is sending 0.6 XMR that was acquired in 10 transactions. Each transaction is 0.06 (0.6 * 216/2160) XMR

A miner is sending 0.6 XMR that was acquired in 120 transactions. Each transaction is 0.005 (0.6 * 18/2160) XMR

A miner is sending 0.6 XMR that was acquired in 1080 transactions. Each transaction is ~5.5555556E-4 (0.6 * 2/2160) XMR

A miner is sending 0.6 XMR that was acquired in 2160 transactions. Each transaction is ~2.77777778E-4 (0.6 * 1/2160) XMR

If possible, I would also like to know the minimal feasible sent Monero; At what point will the network transaction fee be equal to or greater than an 'X' quantity of Monero that is being sent.

I am currently drafting an official request for the Monero Team/Community to look into reducing or eliminating transaction fees for the very first consolidation.

<rucknium> Ok. They have had it for a year: forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/its-here…-integration-for-shielded-zec/49784

holy spam

why are you drafting a request

draft some code!

draft some.. math formula or some shit

this was discussed in a previous MRL

14:44:43 <@DataHoarder> SChernykh/p2pool #388

14:44:47 <@DataHoarder> then also SChernykh/p2pool #390 two days ago

<ofrnxmr> Its a copy paste from reddit

monero-project/research-lab #108 exists

that was the item discussed in MRL

<ofrnxmr> For all of the current math, its pretty simple

<ofrnxmr> what you are calling "transactions", become inputs to the consolidation. Each input added is ~500bytes @ 20000-80000 piconero per byte. therefore the cost to include each input is ~0.00001xmr

<ofrnxmr> On low fee, and 0.00004 on normal

<ofrnxmr> @datahoarder, 108 on ringct would create much smallet txs than a normal consolidation, since the coinbases wouldnt use rings. is this space saving possible in fcmp?

br-m Per the data you have provided, a miner receiving payouts in the form of ~2.77777777778E-4 (0.6 * 1/2160) XMR would be subject to losses of ~3.6% - ~14.4% to transaction fees when consolidating

@br-m Would the Monero Network be capable of identifying or tagging P2Pool payouts so that a P2Pool miner can avoid consolidation fees altogether?

<marioob:matrix.org> @lmaofurries:matrix.org: I don't think I ever brought my sexual fantasies in a professional environment. If we would all do the same, we would be inclusive by definition.

there are NSFW artists :P

<marioob:matrix.org> the name says it all "not safe" 😆

there are sexual games being made professionally, and were always made

<lmaofurries:matrix.org> @marioob:matrix.org: so very profesional lmao, lets all suit up to please the saylor moon:

<lmaofurries:matrix.org> mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/NZnsRVOCBmnsnQHrfQItomRb.png (image.png)

<pcre:matrix.org> I would convert monero-wallet-cli into a tui/ncurses wallet. Something like midnight commander + command line option. And additionally a UNIX-compliant wallet. Dreams are still allowed.

<lmaofurries:matrix.org> Cindy_: i made all the nsfw art in my own VN erogame before the AI thing was even a thing :3

cool

<lmaofurries:matrix.org> 👍️

i remember when sex games were not allowed on consoles

<pcre:matrix.org> Things that can be done with a view-only wallet should simply be queryable on the shell.

this should be a offtopic discussion btw

<marioob:matrix.org> Is it wrong to prefer decency over depravity? 🤨. Anyway, I will stop here as is deviating again from topic. > <@lmaofurries:matrix.org> @marioob:matrix.org: so very profesional lmao, lets all suit up to please the saylor moon:

<ofrnxmr> Guest92: They are coinbases, and further, are coinbases that are paid to more than 1 recipient

mario, you sound like a christian dad :P

<pcre:matrix.org> 3 Wallets in toral. TUI /UI and GUI.

<lmaofurries:matrix.org> @marioob:matrix.org: remember to do ur prayer tonight and wake up at 7:00 precisely to do your mornin poo that u do everyday at the exact 7:00am, also brush ur teeth and no swearing, jeebus wouldnt like that

<ofrnxmr> Avoiding fees isnt a matter of whether its possible - it is. The problem is that the txs themselves are huge, and you pay to play. That is, you pay for blockspace

😾

<ofrnxmr> As stated in the first message, the min fee to relay a tx is ~0.00002xmr per kb. "free" consolidations arent free. People have to pay to store those

<marioob:matrix.org> Cindy_: I am working towards both 😀

<ofrnxmr> mrl 108 for ringct would get rid of rings on coinbase consolidations and churns. Making the tx much, much smaller

<marioob:matrix.org> Is funny how only Christian religion is taken as absurd, while regarding other religions which are way worse in terms of regulations you never hear such offensive jokes.

<ofrnxmr> #monero-offtopic:monero.social

<rucknium> Wow there is a whole book on this web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf The UNIX-HATERS Handbook

<ofrnxmr> 360 pages 😳

i wanna make a XMR giftcard program (like paper gift wallet) :P

but instead of a QR code, i'm using an aztec code

i wonder if devs will even like that

22:41:54 <br-m> <ofrnxmr> @datahoarder, 108 on ringct would create much smallet txs than a normal consolidation, since the coinbases wouldnt use rings. is this space saving possible in fcmp?

it's already a custom format, FCMP does full proofs

in this case, you directly prove over the output/key image

so you disclose the spend

<pcre:matrix.org> @rucknium: I'm a fan of anitpattern and I'm aware that UNIX isn't perfect, but name me an operating system that's better.

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> DataHoarder: Is that a yes?

FCMP doesn't allow any other than FCMP

it works differently

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> So no space saving possible for coinbase consolidations

yeah, cause under FCMP there are no rings

so you can't just make a ring with one input

<elongated:matrix.org> Consolidating p2pool dust payouts will be feasible?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Currently they cost the same as any other consolidation

there's something in progress p2pool specific, elongated

still in research, would be doable with FCMP

(aggregation)

<elongated:matrix.org> DataHoarder: Needs another hf?

just let me solo mine my own zerofee transactions in peace with a few thousand of my friends helping

it needs FCMP++ transaction chaining

<elongated:matrix.org> DataHoarder: Tx chaining isn’t ready ? Wasn’t that pushed while trying to reduce number of inputs for fcmp++

?

we don't have FCMP++ yet

<pcre:matrix.org> @rucknium:monero.social: What's wrong with reprogramming monero-wallet-cli into a TUI/ncurses and adding a UNIX-compliant wallet? TUI + UNIX UI + GUI. All functions that can be performed with a view-only wallet should be easily accessible via a bash shell. Everything else with auth.

The current practice of consolidations is limiting the design and payout capabilities of P2Pool. Based on the provided values, a loss of as high as ~14.4% to send / consolidate ~2.7777777778E-4 XMR (0.6 * 1/2160) is rather notable from my view. The currently available P2Pool chains (main, mini, nano) are unsuitable for low hashrate miners and can

I mean that needs that, so it's still in research

not receive large hashrate miners without negatively affecting denizen miners. If consolidation fees were not applicable to miners, the PPLNS window size could be as large as 6E11 and support payouts as small as 1E-12.

Guest92: they can take large miners fine

your long term earnings are the same, as main shows

those payouts are hefty too

just ... need patience

Depends on where your definition of a large miner begins

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> No, it doesnt

If you're a 200 KH/s miner on P2Pool main and the pool hashrate goes to 3 - 4 GH/s, your experience probably won't be as good as when the pool was at 200 MH/s

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> And? Instant gratification isnt the be-all-end-all

your shares get paid out when found more

cause the pool also finds more blocks

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Theres a reason why centralized pools have larger payouts

when I get main shares I get 2-3 payouts per

it's insane :D

takes a couple of days to get one, ofc

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: (Because it costs a larger % to send smaller ones)

<pcre:matrix.org> Rucknium: Imagine something like $ echo 0.025 | monero payment --subaddr $X | qrencode -tUTF8 | gpg --clearsign | .... | msmtp customer⊙wc

Suppose it were to take 30 days for you to get a share on the pool. Surely you would switch to a different pool even if the payouts were larger and you could be paid multiple times for a share

you are trying to treat monero chain like a centralized pool db

but sadly due to how monero MUST payout coinbase they can't be aggregated without chaining more txs

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Guest92: Its the same shit. You dont get "paid" on a pool until you git the threshold

which in many is like 0.3 XMR

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> until then, its just numbers in a db

<pcre:matrix.org> I just looked up The UNIX-HATERS Handbook from Simson L. Garfinkel on Amazon. 9 reviews. The guy looks like e woke libtard.

Where is the appropriate place to submit a proposal for the monero team/community?

ooooo, you sure owned the libs

patriot approved

<pcre:matrix.org> Okay, I take back the “libtard” comment.

Guest92: comment on the gh issue linked about coinbase tx inputs

it was discussed in a previous MRL then

consensus back then TL;DR was no, experiment/research alternatives

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Guest92: havent you shared it like 6 times on 3 different platforms?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Reddit, github, irc? Over the course of ~1month

<rucknium> > <@pcre:matrix.org> @rucknium:monero.social: What's wrong with reprogramming monero-wallet-cli into a TUI/ncurses and adding a UNIX-compliant wallet? TUI + UNIX UI + GUI. All functions that can be performed with a view-only wallet should be easily accessible via a bash shell. Everything else with auth.

<rucknium> @pcre:matrix.org: There is nothing wrong with making another program to do that, but Monero isn't failing if the monero-wallet-cli doesn't conform to Unix philosophy IMHO.

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Monero isnt failing because its dead

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> (/s)

<rucknium> It's more logical to just use a daemon like monero-wallet-rpc since the program depends so much on a state that changes every 2 minutes on average.

DataHoarder gh issue does not examine the full scope of potential benefits. I will refer to the gh issue in my proposal. The aforementioned issue was created on 2023/01/04 and its last activity was on 2024/10/24. A new proposal / issue would be more appropriate.

<rucknium> To perform an action with a pure CLI, the program has to sync its state with the blockchain first.

the last activity for it was recent, couple of weeks ago

it just wasn't discussed on github

but on a meeting

I think that the current presence of centralized pools with 30+% of the network hashrate should be of concern

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Supoortxmr has ~50%.

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> And weve had 30% pools for as long as i can remember

go to the end, activity monero-project/research-lab #108 then check monero-project/meta #1296

that has the logs where it got discussed

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> P2pool doesnt solve this, because large miners dont really give a shit about decentralization

specifically around the context of p2pool

you can make a formal proposal and submit it there, if you have a specific method that would be equivalent, or the topic can be tabled in for discussion again if you convince / have points to bring up that haven't been addressed yet

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> i wouldnt post the same slop on mrl as has been posted on reddit and p2pool repos

as an aside, p2pool also cannot create that many outputs in coinbase miner tx. that counts for the block weight, which reduces its ability to include monero transactions in some cases

no, not the same exact slop

The discussion does not cover the limitations of P2Pool and the potential improvement it could experience

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> p2pool is not monero

<pcre:matrix.org> @rucknium: I can understand that. I have already implemented a kind of workaround that uses moner-wallet-rpc. See github.com/d4ndox/mnp It was also a provocation to see if you would use git if it worked like monero-wallet-cli.

the discussion on MRL brought up the points as well why

00:00:02 <DataHoarder> consensus back then TL;DR was no, experiment/research alternatives

p2pool is not a first class user, but second class user, so it doesn't get special behavior for it (even if it'd allow other mining pools also to work more efficiently, but they don't have the same magnitude of consolidations)

<rucknium> git also has a lot of design decisions that are poor in retrospect. So I would prefer not to use git now lol

<rucknium> git became popular because github became popular

<pcre:matrix.org> @rucknium: What would you use instead? cvs, svn?

for the meaning I give, first class = essential/prioritized and specific changes to monero can be done for the specific use case that maybe has no utility for others

second class = adaptations can be done, but not specific to the usage. something that benefits other, yeah

some changes to Carrot/FCMP++ were done when brought up, for example. not suggestions all ended up implemented, but that's fine

P2Pool is a desirable development for the Monero network when considering the issue of a 51% attack

well, that's my opinion too Guest92 :)

but I might be biased and have conflict of interest :')

<pcre:matrix.org> cvs is slow, git is the best out there. May I ask how old you are?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> P2pool doesnt prevent a 51% attack

if a single miner has 51%

they will have it on their own

without pools or with p2pool

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> like, people can solo and pool mine with the existence of p2pool

what it changes is that even if p2pool itself has 51%, no single miner has 51% of monero

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> unless you are to ban solo-mining, you cant really ban pooled hashrate

and each miner within p2pool is picking their own txs, blocks, templates

Then it can be argued that a modification to the Monero Network that benefits P2Pool also benefits the Monero Network as a whole

<rucknium> This is git: xkcd.com/1597

git gud ez

<rucknium> I think I'm off topic now

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @rucknium: I must disagree

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> :P

(have you seen the markov chain generating git commands?)

also for centralized pools

self-select exists and is supported in quite a few

that removes 51% concerns, as you use your local/selected monero node to make templates

I don't have numbers in how many people use that. but it could be a nice stat for pools to display (as informative)

<pcre:matrix.org> @rucknium: lol, fair point. With subversion it was easy to revert a file.

it probably is single digits percentage of users that use that

there are various ways to address 51% concerns for willing/not-malicious participants ^ this is one

What would happen if only decentralized miners / pools were to be supported

No more centralized pools

how do you achieve that, Guest92

a centralized pool can mine via p2pool

:)

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> You cant ban pools while allowing p2pool

there are a couple that do that already

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> DataHoarder: yep

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> And they do

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> and they can even run their own p2pool secretly

(some are doing that already!)

there's a couple of small secret p2pool sidechains

you can have a multisig method for what WOW does

which has other fun issues

there's also many that come in and don't care

they go big pool, go mine

scream about which ASIC to buy :P

cause it must be asic mined, that's all they know

if you want to regularly discuss this I'd recommend setting up an IRC account/client so you can stay connected Guest92 or alternatively hop to the matrix bridged side

The proposal currently spans many pages. Is github issue really the best way to submit it?

is it a proposal or generated text?

like, concrete ways to accomplish things, or numbers without taking into account technical details around it?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> make a gist and post it on reddit

make a PDF file

a gist is a good idea, yep

that can be commented on (and several other in-progress proposals use that)

random recent example, PQ Turnstile for Carrot gist.github.com/jeffro256/146bfd5306ea3a8a2a0ea4d660cd2243

It's a long docx / odt with an abstract, design patterns / general parameters of PPLNS pools, example scenarios, limitations of P2Pool in context of small hashrate miners, documented instances of P2Pool under attack / encountering undesirable circumstances, etc

make a PDF file then

and submit it where

<rucknium> Don't make a PDF. Convert it to markdown and post it as gist. GitHub markdown supports LaTeX equations now.

<rucknium> Or you can make it as a PDF and host it on its own GitHub repo.