<a​lpharabius:matrix.org> From looking at this site and others we can pay for 3 seconds in a movie and nigerian libertarian seminar but we can't decentralize project funding? <= open to proposals

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Cock.li: 10 Years of Throbbing E-mail - vc.gg/blog/cockli-10-years.html

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> dsc_ ^

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> > <l​uigi1111w> From looking at this site and others we can pay for 3 seconds in a movie and nigerian libertarian seminar but we can't decentralize project funding? <= open to proposals

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> Didn't cakepal pay for that "3 seconds in a movie" ?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> which movie is this with the 3 seconds?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Netflix one had like a whole 30

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> I'm assuming we are talking about the one you always bitch about 😆

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comment…is_featured_in_the_netflix_show_the

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> We made it into episode 1

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> I don't think the CCS had anything to do with that one.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Is there anything he doesn't bitch about? 😂

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> Sometimes a generous amount of bitching is warranted 🤣

<g​orillaquest:matrix.org> The show got 39% audience score on rotton tomatoes 💀

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> Didn't cakepal pay for that "3 seconds in a movie" ? <= could be I don't know. Often there are large donors

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> > > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> We made it into episode 1

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> > The show got 39% audience score on rotton tomatoes 💀

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Keyword "audience"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Need an audience to have a score

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> m.imdb.com/title/tt15264452/episodes

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> 6.7

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> eztv.re/ep/1857267/the-lorenskog-di…arance-s01-dubbed-webrip-x264-ion10

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> has anyone tried to make a decision tree for the ccs wallet proposals

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> is the solution convenient -> not usable....! does it require multisig -> no way. does it require a magic solution from core / them to take more responsibility -> yes? not happening. direct funding -> dream on!

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Isn't that your job? Do better!

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> im unemployed

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> if ive missed some proposals please add paste.debian.net/1298653

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Yeah, last two would have my vote.

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> That's settled then. Let's move on 😆

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> hooray im employed

<a​rnuschky:matrix.org> For the record, this is not true. We're using RINO for all our businesses (anything else is just a stupid risk). I can't speak for binaryFate personally of course.

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> You just did.

<a​rnuschky:matrix.org> We make sure that you can verify what you get. The frontend is completely open source, we're using verifiable builds, you can re-build yourself, and we have set up integrity.rino.io to check the integrity of the assets delivered to you. That's the maximum we can do short of delivering a signed desktop app to you (which we're working on).

<a​rnuschky:matrix.org> What I meant so say: I cant' speak for binary's personal usage, but I can attest that we're using RINO for all business operations that involve binary and Monero

if we pick either of the last two options that plowsof listed, how do we decide who the custodian is? I personally would prefer a confidential vote and outcome, but how are we going to set that up?

<a​rnuschky:matrix.org> I didn't say that it's inadequate, incorrect or unusable. However, we have limited resources. We'll implement the PGP-based solution if it's faster. It's as simple as that.

<a​rnuschky:matrix.org> It's unlikely that the PGP-based solution is faster, and I think it makes less sense, but I wanted to list suggestions/feature requests made by users that we're currently investigating

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> midipoet "this is up to core" -> "do not expect a magical solution from core" (my decision tree is falling apart here)

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> People sign NDAs😬

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Maybe policies can write a cyber sec policy for core

Sure, but as it stands we would need to use Google Docs cause an alternative hasn't materialised

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Why don't you guys buy monono stickers instead? nitter.salastil.com/rottenwheel1/status/1726469216356770137

<v​ostoemisio:matrix.org> Swedish translations for Kuno:

<v​ostoemisio:matrix.org> General Translation, I used XMRadar s structure - paste.sethforprivacy.com/?3a52a3b79…PYv9LJhsGFcUeyZgneQcovdJ7ewXjtfZGwj

<v​ostoemisio:matrix.org> FAQ, this is made from scratch so feel free to set it in the structure and push it XMRadar - paste.sethforprivacy.com/?e48a0c2d0…uFiujyhTAifzabFrznVrfCJb76SLGNemQJ8

vosto is Swedish confirmed.

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> And kids, that's how it's done 😂

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> 2 has my vote :) . I feel any custodian approach (1, 3, 4, 5, 6) is essentially asking someone to play Grand Protector and I feel like the CCS has grown beyond the necessity for those training wheels

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> 1. developer proposes CCS (as now) 2. Proposal goes through vetting (discussion etc, as now). 3. Proposal moves to "funding required". 4. Funders pledge amounts (funds still remain in their own wallets) 4. milestones met, funders requested to send their monero to wallet managed by CCS developer.

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> funders can post their tx proof that they sent it in forum.

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> if funders fail to honor pledge, then they can no longer contribute.

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> there could be fancy ways to do all this with some webpage shenanigans probably

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> i really don't understand why direct funding is the bottom of the barrel here. Everyone gravitates to some authority taking care of everything. I don't get it.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Generalfund?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Sure havr

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Apologies to irc (missing replies)

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> gingeropolous: That requires a reputation/ID system for funders.

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> I like it, but it isn't without downsides.

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> i feel there is already a reputation / ID system for the CCS "evaluators" or "voters" during the ideas stage

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> those that push it to funding required

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> .. just abt everything that doesnt have a reason _not_ to, gets merged

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> No need to push things _to_ funding

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> there are things that haven't made it from my own recollection

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Because they were blocked

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Even 51/49 ccs get merged

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> 51/49 referring to the 👍/👎 tally

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And asking me to pledge $, but not send it, is dreaming

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> y

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Bcuz you cant even pledge a monerokon ticket and expect the person to show up _unless_ theyve MADE the financial commitment

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> those don't seem equivalent. showing up to an event is a drastic effort wall compared to opening your wallet and sending monero

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Asking me to promise ill come, and not actually taking my money, is asking for an empty crowd

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> i hate travel.

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> There's also a timeliness aspect to things. How long do you give funders to complete payment when the work is done?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> whenever funders feel like it

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> "if funders fail to honor pledge, then they can no longer contribute."

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> New handle, yolo

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> something like that. In addition, the pledge would go over 100% so there are backup pledgers.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> New rule "new handles cant contribute"

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> You could make it so a donation to the general fund is required to have an ID. The problem isn't fatal, but it is a problem.

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> as ive mentioned lotsa times

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Limitijg donors is retarded. Sorry ginger

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> well its just an idea to deal with donors potentially backing out. there are probably other ideas

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Donors backing out is solved

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> By taking their money

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> sticking with some grandpappy authority figure holding the funds is just doing the same thing over again

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> "but better"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> At the time the money is available

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> I don't think the idea is that bad, or even bad at all. The devil is in the details.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I think the idea is 100% unworkable in "monero"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Maybe it works for magic or gofundme

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> But not for anon donations to anon contributors

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> dude i bet there are like 5-10 major contributors to the CCS as is

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> What are the barriers to getting the idea working? Sounds like we need a fork of the CCS that allows funder ID creation (details TBD), assigns funders IDs to pledges, notifies funders when work is complete, and credits those IDs when funds are sent.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And i het theyd love to show their id for PERMISSION to keep funding this boating accident

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Magicgrants..

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Monero doesnt do "ID the contributors"

<a​rnuschky:matrix.org> I am not involved with that - it's under responsibility of the core team as far as I understand. I think it's something of a back-stop emergency fund, rarely accessed. This makes totally sense to keep that in an air-gapped cold wallet.

<a​rnuschky:matrix.org> RINO is meant for wallets that need to be regularly or even programatically accessed, by multiple parties. It's *NOT* the best choice for cold storage. Regarding the CCS, it's ideal for a smaller part of it, keeping the excess in a cold wallet.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Generalfund isnt a backup wallet

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> It paya for infra and is currently paying ccs

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Used to pay wages

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Used to be used to*

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> To say "bf and monero business use rino"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And "what ofrnxmr said isnt true" are false

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> What does bf use rino for, related to his position of core?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Not generalfund 1, not generalfund 2, not bounties wallet.

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> As of today Monero doesn't do Seraphis. But it can do things tomorrow! :)

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> Funders can't be expected to dox themselves, but having some public reputation that they can offer as a sort of assurance to prospective workers doesn't seem so awful to me.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Maybe his _personal_ endeavors use rino.

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> spackle_xmr: yeah, I think those are the major ones. A CCS system where you hit a pledge button. Either a new ID is created, or you get a hash of some existing ID. You enter contact info if desired (the funder can also opt to just keep track of the project themselves). The final part of the system would require the CCS developer to post their viewkey so that progress of fulfillme<clipped messa

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> nt could be tracked (CCS dev would be required to create a new wallet for the effort).

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Assurance?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> $

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I dont csre if vik says "i am pledging"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> that just tells me "i work for vik"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> No. I work for donations.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> If vik wants to pay me, he can pay me directly

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I dont need to slimeball ccs to get 3 whales to support my new movie

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> The movie was pledged, for example

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> There are ~ "20" donors of each ccs. Usually the same person donates multiple times

Yeah, i also think the pledge method would be problematic.

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> you could even create a "weighted pledge" counter for the CCS dev to monitor. Pledges with a track record are weighted >50%. Pledges with no track record get something else. Could even allow the dev to be the one that then clicks "project is funded", so they decide if there's enough pledges to move forward.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> thats craziness

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Id never donate then

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ever

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Let the whales and larpers sign up

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Why would i go out of my way to give mt money away

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> What a joke

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> adding red tape to donors is hilarious

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Were not donating blood yknow

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> i mean, you end up with a centralized database. But at least its not a centralized pot of money. I don't see why a hacker would want to get ahold of a database of pledge IDs

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> "oooh, im gonna get this database and then trick CCS devs into thinking they are funded! bwahahahahaha"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Worried about orotectinf 0 xmr

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> To the point of it being detrimental to PAYING devs

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Meanwhile, devs starve while we run around like headless chickens

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Protecting 0 xmr

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> (there is 0xmr in ccs wallet)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> 8000 in gf

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Yet were talking about ccs wallet, which will never be as big a target again

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> (2000/2700xmr wasnt even ccs money)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Meanwhile 8000xmr in generalfund, and if wr DIDNT get robbed, we might have refunded 2500 xmr to a stranger

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> You wsnt to whine about ccs?

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> gingeropolous: I was imagining all of the funder data would be public. Their addresses would be their IDs. The notification method is a little more dicey, but it is interesting to think about.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> stop ignoring generalfund

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> spackle_xmr: , their addresses?

ofrnxmr: the convo isn't about GF, it's about CCS

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Its about securing money

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ccs has no money to secure

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ccs patrons are being paid by generalfund

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Yet the convo has lead into "how to make it harder to donate"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> and not "how to protect our assets"

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> gingeropolous: Monero addresses would be convenient IDs. There are already payment proofs and message signing methods, so that would be one way to handle crediting funders.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> > spackle_xmr: , their addresses?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I think they mean monero address

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> true.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ffs used to keep track of who donated what

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> But, opt-in iirc.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> "ginger has donated 40k xmr" for example

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> .. and re monero addresses

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Those are easier to generate than a new matrix handle

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> and i agree midipoet that the pledge method may have problems, but to me they seem solvable, whereas an authority's wallet getting hacked is unsolvable. With this, we can remove the attack surface. Not just spread it around.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> its not removing an attack surface

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Its doing backflips for 500xmr

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> (Ccs didnt lose 2700xmr. Period)

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> well, i guess its technically spread around to the opsec of individual monero users. but thats the existing general attack surface of the monero userbase.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> No

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> its 5 ppl

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> though it would be ideal that the CCS system doesn't log IPs, or that users are required to use tor / i2p to interact with it. Such that a trail back to an IP addy with monero on it isn't left in the CCS

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> The "general populous" doesnt donate

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Wik not using opsec

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Vik

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And some whales use alts too

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> My god this shit is cringe

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> i appreciate you, Trasher

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> Thanks 😎

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> who was talking about mission impossible? Dsc, them too

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> lulz. I guess the pledge method could be done via the monero network though. There's some address that a pledger has to send piconeros to, with the piconero amount equaling the digit amount of monero they are sending.... but then anyone could send to that address i guess.

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> Let's try this another way: If someone had this system working, what objection is there to offering it?

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> Sure, if it is too difficult to use then people won't use it, but I don't see a downside to giving people the option.

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> IDs have to be valuable, and there needs to be good communication for funders. Neither of those are insurmountable.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> So many smart ppl with no real world experience it seems

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Monero weakness

gingeropolous: this might be true

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> Indeed. And objection to offering it is what?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> You're talking about 2 interconnected systems

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> 1 proposal, some people pledge and some people pay up front

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> "cake pledged 100xmr"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And gets to "pay later"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> But regular folks (who we still need to onboard) - lets make donating a complicated matter, or only risk their funds, and STILL require escrow (aka..were not changing anything)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Jusy adding a new path for whales to "pay later"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Still does nothing to secure our money

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> Wait, people are paying up front? We're still requiring escrow? That isn't what I think is being discussed.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> We almost GAVE AWAY 2500xmr during the robbery

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Youre talking about going ID-only, spackle?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> You said "giving people the option"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I assumed that meant id be able to take tge easy donation option when i see a ccs

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Otherwise im just scrolling by and letting VC investors fund ot

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> Right, as in having a different CCS architecture that works only on pledges.

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> The option of an entirely different CCS. Not a mixed approach within a single CCS.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> So.. not cca

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> So.. not ccs

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> More like

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> VC fund

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> VCF

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> I'm not sure what these labels are supposed to imply, but a Community Crowdfunding System that operates entirely off of pledges seems as much a CCS to me as anything else.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> An autmated system is escrow

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> A nonautomated system is a calendar

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Theres no "Community" when the only donors are people with financial interests in the project, or who have reason to take the time out of their days to pledge and complete payments

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Red taping donors iant a solution

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And offering donars gold stars to hold their money and come back s few times to make payments in the next 4-50 weeks

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Donors donate, and walk away. Job well done.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> lets ask them to work. Brilliant

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> "Gold stars to hold their money"

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> What I've seen talked about doesn't involve anyone holding donor money, I don't know what you are talking about. That is the advantage of the approach.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Im talking about donors having to hold the pledged money

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I want to give 100xmr

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> Ahh, donors are the 'they'

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> So i have to hold it for .. until im contacted

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> which may be in 3 weeks, maybe in 8

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> Sure. That can be part of the process. Perhaps clearly enforced requirement timelines would be an advantage.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Those are cca problems that exist outside of the wallet

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Aka

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> You have to complete work and contact me for payment by X date.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Thata why we lost 2000 more xmr than we ever should have had

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> Holy shit. `enforced requirement timelines` is a new low.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> because the jet fund was unallocated

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> Why?

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> Here is a pledge for your work, which is only valid if the work is complete by X date. That's a new low?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> what would haveno do 😂

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Or seraphis

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> imaging pledging dor seraphis

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> We are talking about freelancers and volunteers. Let's make a bunch of rules, making it unattractive to get involved.

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> Okay, so if the system is too difficult it doesn't get used. That isn't a reason for the system to not exist.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Yes it is

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Theres a word for it

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> A term*

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> Same goes for donors. Making it a hassle will filter out the casual participant.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> All the calls against escrow..

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> why escrow?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Where do you think the 2000xmr we had came from..

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> It was escrowed money on undelivered projects

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> We _were_ 2000xmr richer as a result of escrow

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And what is that for? Insurance.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> maybe pledging works if the funda are presecure from elsewhere

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> That would seem to be an argument against the way things have been done. People donated and got nothing in return.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Not my fault ppl let luigi and bf hold 4500 xmr for no reason

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> 2000 from escrow and 2500 for monero.com

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> Okay, well here's an alternative.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Sat in hands of ppl like "were not going to do what community wants"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> The solution was available long before the hack

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> But core wants to hold all the money

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Like a bank, but unlike banks, uncle tony never gets knocked off"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> i mean.. how does pledging solve generalfund?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> It keeps ccs wallet at 0 balance

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And does nothing to protect out existing assets

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> Solve generalfund? Who said it does?

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> Actually, I'm going to cap it off there. I've said my peace. I suppose the next step for it to go forward would be for someone to put together a complete proposal including the hairy details.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Nobody :P

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> (nobody in response to "who said it does")

I really do not care how this new CCS is setup

there's also monero funding my plowsof (?) which seems to work

by*

it seems that this pledging idea brings more work and uncertainty to the devs

as we have seen in the past and as it has been recently expressed it is bad to put additional barriers in their way

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> Yes, there are serious downsides to the pledging approach. Though the additional barriers are more for donors than devs. I imagine the process being the same for devs, with the significant addition of 'do you trust these pledges?'

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> I think it is important to reflect on how the only thing that saved the existing system is the GF. That is a happy backup plan, but the loss of the CCS wallet would have been a complete catastrophe without it.

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> Ah, I said I would cap it off, but there I go.

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> In summary: Plowsof fixes this :)

Honestly, i am not sure if a single, known, entity controlling CCS funds is a good idea, no matter how good the opsec.

A single (unknown) entity is mildly better.

It'll be luigi but we wont admit it ok

unknown, as in, the key holder is not advertised.

Unfortunately, i don't think it should not be luigi

*should be

i think a single entity would be totally fine, given some basic requirements like trustworthiness and availability

I doubt at any point this fund would exceed >500k so we're talking peanuts basically

granted a lot of money, but in the grand scheme of 'single entities managing funds' that is a normal situation

without legal recourse is not that common though

that's true

<a​js_:matrix.org> what is that saying, trick me once...

I bet the Tor foundation has a legal setup for that

if it is within a legal framework then these funds could possibly get insurance too

I can already see the headlines. "Anti-establishment crypto coin applies for insurance"

Could the key holder take out cyber security insurance?

Lol

I'm just providing an option, I don't care about insurance :P

i.e: we could make nioc an unofficial fund manager and I would sleep just as well

We could do another "hack" and then claim

dsc_: thx :) but what about the danger of busses :D

nioc: you ever leave the house? :P

sadly I do

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> 2 cold + 2 hot wallet managers.

We could do Shamir secret sharing and pick three unknowns, one designated as the "spender"

we could have 2 funds, 1 fund does the 800 person multi-sig thing, the other the pragmatic

Makes sense, except some don't want to use multisig

sech1: btw, Monero is not anti-establishment, only its community is. Using money is one of the most established concepts throughout human history and Monero is merely yet another iteration

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> > <s​ech1> I can already see the headlines. "Anti-establishment crypto coin applies for insurance"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Monerkon

That can beat the BlackCat filing a SEC complaint :D

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> nioc's cat is black? (jk)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> > <d​sc_> sech1: btw, Monero is not anti-establishment, only its community is. Using money is one of the most established concepts throughout human history and Monero is merely yet another iteration

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Id say "anti fiat and oro hard money". The "anti establishment" in this case, would be relying on fiat banking insurance to insure hard xmr. Imo

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Pro*

it is only assigning personal labels to non-partisan technology

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Anyway, i think its weird to insure xmr with anything but xmr

e.g: I am not anti-fiat, while others are. As fiat has a different meaning depending under what monetary policy you happen to be located in

sorry, being a bit pedantic here :P

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> By fiat, im referring to money with a supply that grows or shrinks at the whim of the current government

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Np, lol :)

yes, it depends on how democratic the process is of your goverment to manage its own funds

which in many cases it has shown to be undemocratic

i.e: fund wars through tax payer money

i.e: use tax payer money to save the economy because the banking system made a mistake

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Over and over again

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> and using military money against us

<dsc_> if it is within a legal framework then these funds could possibly get insurance too <= I doubt you can do any of this without KYCing proposers

indeed

am not advocating for a legal framework (i really dont care at all) but some people had concerns regarding liability, a legal framework is one option, many foundations for FOSS software have such a setup

does MAGIC fill this niche already?

ping Rucknium

<r​ucknium:monero.social> What is "this niche"?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Pledging donations

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> (i think)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> or insuring them

Kyc'd proposers / insured funds / legal repercussions if something bad happens (i guess)

The magic board are the super administrators still

Pledges happen already with a thumbs up + a comment

<s​weetbearkiller:monero.social> 👍️nice hair

Magic was told once that a certain proposer had donors lined up to fund their work.. ended up not getting funded/removed from their platform lol

In that case it was used as a tool to force it onto the funding oage

s/oage/page

I think the comments here would qualify as a pledge (no complex system needed) repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/105

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> A problem with "proposed" pledges, is the person making the pledges, is expected to payout those pledges on demand

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Could be 6 months from now, could be 6 weeks

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> The proposer is supposed to believe that the funds are secure, by leaving them in the hands of the donor

<s​weetbearkiller:monero.social> :/

<s​weetbearkiller:monero.social> not usre

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Donors*

<s​weetbearkiller:monero.social> not sure

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Its not like "i have a proposal and 1 donor"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> its like "i have a proposal with 20 donors and need all of them to pay me"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Do i contact them myself? Is that now added to plowsofs duties?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> We think multisig msging is hard, try contacting 20 ppl to tell them "milestone hit, pay immediately".. without an escrow

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Thats why weve devolved into insurance conversations

<r​ucknium:monero.social> "In that case it was used as a tool to force it onto the funding oage" <= I don't think the claim of having funders "lined up" influenced the decision to put mj's proposal on the fundraising page.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> i think i remember it did

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Cuz, mj was already not in a good light

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Did you see that somewhere in the MAGIC meeting notes?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> no, probably something mj said in a room or reddit

<r​ucknium:monero.social> mj did say something like that, but that's not the same thing as the statement influencing the decision.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> i find it hard to believe his proposal would be accepted unless

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> 1. You needed him (you made comments about the necessity of his work in relation to yours. And your work is important)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> 2. The money was preallocated (nobody in their right mind was going to give mj more money)

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Anyway, I think MAGIC can fill some niches that involve having a legal entity. Right now there is no "pledge" mechanism with MAGIC. Donors donate. If the worker does not complete their work, then the donated money goes to MAGIC's general fund.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> I recused myself from voting on mj's proposal. I don't know what you mean by "preallocated".

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Preallocated as in, he told people it would be funded by whoever he claimed at the time

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Not as in "MAGIC put money aside"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> More like "proposal was advertised lik it had pledges"

<r​ucknium:monero.social> I don't know if the other MAGIC Monero Fund committee members even knew about mj's statements about having donors lined up. I think those statements were vague, too. IIRC he said something like "thanks to the anonymous community members who have been supporting me."

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> He wrote booklong stories where he said more

<r​ucknium:monero.social> And those statements may have appeared _after_ the vote in August 2022 anyway.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Maybe even on his github issues

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> anyway. Rip mj. Moving on :p

Iirc mj actually completed the work he promised for.magic and they cancelled/removed his fundraiser and didnt use their "general fund" to help him , so sad

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Must be your fault.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> It's always plowsof's fault when things go wrong.

Luckily we bought him on board when we did

The ccs hacker funded me to take the blame, it all makes sense

<r​ucknium:monero.social> IIRC mj did about a month of work. He didn't complete all the tasks for the proposed work. He started working on it before people could donate to the fundraiser.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> About two months ago jeffro completed the most important part of that proposal: documentation about what wallet2's decoy selection algorithm actually is.

Total earned from MAGIC: Zero MAGICGrants/Monero-Fund #21

Ccs isnt the only one who let devs starve thankfully

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Mj got fed charity money, dw about him so much