<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> this half-assed pseudo consensus mechanism is a Huge stone blocking the development of the ecosystem

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> its funny why some people should control what community wants to donate or ignore

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> your not a treasurer buddy, its just a platform or website for developers to share their idea and for people to support the projects "THEY LIKE and APPROVE" not the mods

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> you guys are creating a non-existing problem, then apply for a role to fix or moderate that problem

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> infinite money glitch😎

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> you guys are creating a non-existing problem, then apply for a role to fix or moderate that problem

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> infinite money glitch

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> He is the real glitch! Hear him out!

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> at most, moderator should only block spams

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> troll,laugh it off, and start fighting for it forever

I’m not against the funding proposal. I’m against the transfer of power that comes along with it. Shitty of luigi to bundle the two together

the problem isnt just spam proposals

Its ones locked up funding in "great in theory, impossible in practice", straight up scams etc

There is ~2000xmr worth of incomplete, dormant proposals

at least give us a few acceptable options if we’re going to pretend like the community has a say

Where proposers collected 1 milestone then bounced

Regardless. Plowsof needs a merger now, not 2 weeks from now

And he needs someone who can keep up

theres also the subject of monero-docs

Which (i thought) luigi had agreed to give me merge powers on when he created the repo, but never did and now its just in limbo

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> spam or scam same category

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> and there should be some constraints too

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> like not freezing a viable proposal with the support from community for 3 month without any reason or objection

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> its way harder than taking a loan from traditional bank, specially for newer people

<j​0j0xmr:monero.social> You would get merge powers too?

On monero-docs? Of course

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> For site, I believe, yes.

Idk who j0j0 is asking

<j​0j0xmr:monero.social> So not github repo?

Yes github repo

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> For monero-site repo

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> On github

Not monero-project/monero

But monero-project/monero-site

<j​0j0xmr:monero.social> That's what I meant. OK.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Not the whole project. Not monero, Not monero-gui, not ccs

real_glitch ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/vd-molly-payments-stage1.html where do you label this

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> thats a hell of a reading for late night hours

Do you know what molly is? The signal fork?

The proposal was to add monero to molly, eta ~18 weeks

Instead, molly raised more money from outside of the ccs, never delivered, posted a new delay update every 6 months for 2yrs, then asked for more money

And they were funded again

Both ccs are incomplete

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> in milestone part it is empty, so did monero CCS pay the guy or the proposal got funded but donated to GF?

<3​21bob321:monero.social> If its empty then no payment

Need To check the ccs

if it's up to date :)

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> i will support anyone who adds a fuking dark theme/mode to both ccs and getmonero website

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Use sunglasses

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> i dont know the guy but i see a lot of positive comments from the core devs

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> maybe make a verification process for people requesting huge funds like this so we can catch them out there if needed?(JK JK)

<v​alldrac:matrix.org> About the SDK CCS, milestone 1 is done, which was the toughest part. Now, just waiting for a pull-request review for milestone 2

<v​alldrac:matrix.org> monero-project/monero #9344

I was never convinced that xmr-haelan, thunderosa and almutasim weren't just alts of already established people in the community.

Regarding the LLC and -community, i think a LOT of the push back could have been solved if there had been a non-profit, or a co-op of some kind, set up. This would be similar to twisted edwards. In a perfect world this would have put legal obligations on the directors/shareholders regarding profit sharing and re-investment. That wasn't done (even though it was suggested).

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> At no point in time Justin or anyone involved with that idea claimed the LLC was going to be for profit to begin with.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> It was simply a formalization for accounting purposes.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> The whole make it non-profit strays into eurocuck misunderstanding of what an LLC constitutes.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> It was all the stretched truth by geonic, haelan, you, claiming it was all an evil plan for compliance, KYC, for-profit, company, bla bla bla...

We, as a community, could have figured it out. Instead, the persons that wanted/needed the change (and it was a distinct need) didn't seem to want to try and choose and alternate path, and instead left community, or at least stepped back. It was fair enough, as they were genuinely hurt, as they felt their objectives were misinterpreted. I personally lost a friend over it (yes, i want a violin).

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Stepped down and registered Monero Space LLC, was the original plan.

rotten: yes, we knew that for the most part. BUT there would have been legal implications of assets falling under their control, including compliance requirements. For example, they wanted an LLC to run some social media channels. That would have meant a RAFT of compliance obligations in Europe

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> That did not bear any fruition, mainly because everyone was, still at that point, repeating the same nonsensical bullshit over and over... Compliance, for profit, company, KYC...

The fears weren't completely unfounded, as you seem to suggest.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> The most retarded one... US based!

rottenwheel: they would have been serving EU based people

EU regs apply

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> We cannot have a Monero related LLC that is registered in the US. Gasp!

rottenwheel: i never said that.

All some people wanted was more thought put into it

That's it.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Since when do you need an LLC to "run a social media account"?

They didn't want to try (it seemed), and left

Removing the concept of LLCs from decentralised infra and governance is completely legitimate

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Don't blame them for stepping down. You lot are exhaustingly retarded.

Saying it's not, is ignorance

We could have tried to solve it someway

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> What decentealized infrastructure and governance are you talking about now?

Or at least discussed it for longer than one or two months. Things weren't going to crumble if there was no LLC

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> What decentralized infrastructure and governance are you talking about now?

In this instance it was social media platforms (matrix, IRC channels, YouTube - don't know how you do that decentralised), and governance of above.

We still haven't really figured it out either. Cypherstack exists as an LLC and helps out with this

And this recent CCS will put director of LLC back in control of morr stuff, so the problem is reappearing.

If it's not a problem, fine

But SOME people think it is

So be an adult, and deal with it

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Can't decentralize "infrastructure" if the whole thing is a proprietary SaSS. 🙃

SaaS

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Be an adult and deal with it? 😂

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Sassafras!

<3​21bob321:monero.social> There is always a single point in IT infrastructure when managing. So there is continuity

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Precisely.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Matrix, Twitter profiles, IRC (#monero-xxxx...) channels, GitLab repository, CCS, it's all centralized.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Don't get what midi says about "decentralized infra and governance".

As i remember, the idea was to put pretty much all social media (that we had at the time) under control of one LLC, with three board members.

Please correct me if i am wrong

If that plan was suggested today, how do you think it would be received? (Honest question)

<3​21bob321:monero.social> I think you will have an issue with who the 3 are

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Trust issue

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> That sounds like bs.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> All social media entails @monero as well, highly doubt that was the case.

There was a ton of social media. I remember that. It also included existing youtube content.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Yes, Monero Community Workgroup YouTube channel.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> I wonder... who used to host Monero Coffee Chats before you all killed -community?

Twitter, mastadon/matrix (i still don't know the difference), YouTube, i can't remember what else

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Who ran bi-weekly meetings every year?

rotten, you didn't answer the question

How would it go, if suggested today

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Can't answer a question with a bullshit claim.

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Sounds like the same thing as core

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> @monero would not fall under that LLC.

<3​21bob321:monero.social> 3 people in charge of socials

it would have been similar to core, except wrapped up in LLC liability

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Wdym

There would have been benefits (without a doubt), but also valid concerns

<3​21bob321:monero.social> What is the LLC liability ?

core, for the most part, aren't accountable to regulations in the same way that an LLC is. That is both a benefit and a vulnerability, admittedly

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Voting on a board?

LLC is accountable to law abd regulations

Can get sued for stuff, shut down, etc

Targeted, etc etc

<3​21bob321:monero.social> So what regulation would stop them from doing what they want with socials ?

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> lol.

Nothing. But anyone in charge of socials now can do the same

That didn't fix that issue

The main practical benefit was fundraising and invoicing (as i remember it)

They are serious benefits, without a doubt.

<3​21bob321:monero.social> So where adding bureaucracy?

But without them, has -community died?

<3​21bob321:monero.social> With accountablitiy

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Without*

-community "died" cause an IDEA for an LLC got rejected. That's it. what then happened is the people involved took it personally

<3​21bob321:monero.social> At some people someone needs to be trusted

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> midipoet if you zoom in the timeframe between them stepping down from community, Space LLC registration... the period afterwards.

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Which is pro and con

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Diego got let go months later...

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Were there bi-weekly community meetings? Were there Monero Coffee Chats?

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Was there a Monero trivia every few months?

Of course there was a vacuum

Not because the LLC got rejected, but because the people got affronted with the rejection and left

THAT is the honest truth

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Then why do you pose the question "But without them, has -community died?" as if that weren't the case?

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> ABSOLUTE TRUTH BY PHILOSOPHER MIDIPOET.

"Without the LLC has the community died?"

No

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> It has to be written in caps, otherwise it's not true.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> So now you're rephrasing your original question? lol.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Anyways, this is all a waste of time. LLC bad.

The them in question above, was "the benefits", not the people

If you can follow the train of comments, it's obvious. Apologies if it wasn't

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> <m​idipoet> -community "died" cause an IDEA for an LLC got rejected. That's it. what then happened is the people involved took it personally

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> How can you not take it personal when the accusations around are absolutely false?

<3​21bob321:monero.social> This sounds like drunk talk

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Please do not get defensive and say you did not say X or Y. It is a general counterargument.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Among the accusations... Compliance bro wants to create LLC, that could be a for-profit entity, where community assets reside. Impossible, inacceptable, regulations, USA, they'll serve EU users, hurrr durrr.

threat/risk analysis is always based on predicates that may or may not exist in the future. Monero people do it every day, for myriad things. People in the community did a risk assessment on the LLC and waved a red flag and shouted (me included). That's it

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> You definitely sound like a drunk old man 24/7 with your nonsense comments, but nobody points a finger at you.

fair enough, I'll shut up then. Thanks for the insights.

<3​21bob321:monero.social> What

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> That wasn't with you, was with Dan.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> You don't see the quote reply because you're on IRC, midi.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> midipoet question in point... How can you not take it personal when the accusations around are absolutely false?

<c​t:xmr.mx> wait what, Dan is like the most sane person around here

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Once upon a time i remember you were banned from all privacy rooms

<3​21bob321:monero.social> For

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Bigot and something else

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Gasp!

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Call the mods!

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Where's plowsof?

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Anyways

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Compared to most here sure

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Bar is very low ceetee

Don't go to the psych ward, join a cryptocurrency community!

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Alt now

<c​t:xmr.mx> I mean to topic attracts _unique_ people

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Interesting

<c​t:xmr.mx> I mean the topic attracts

<c​t:xmr.mx> unique people

<3​21bob321:monero.social> We welcome all

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> We are all unique and special in our own ways. 🌈

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Speaking of neurodiverse people... xcancel.com/Dimi_h/status/1808797921053114400

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Speaking of neurodivergent people... xcancel.com/Dimi\_h/status/1808797921053114400

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> yeah

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> im sure he got those 75k from hodling btc

"We are all unique and special in our own ways. 🌈" << what this supposed to mean?

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Figure it out.

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Rotten and ofrnxmr should get along but I know it's touchy subject 💜 we should all be friends

Why would i get along with someone as useless as him

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> 😬

this is a workgroup, not a gay bashing party

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Please don't try to associate me with that tool.

and im not taking things out of context, rotten is intentionally trying to stir the pot. Did the same thing yesterday (and 2 days ago) when he was call calling people midgets and trannies

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> JUST IN: The biggest heckling turd in the Monero community is now acting as a de facto moderator, telling people what they can say and what they cannot say!

this is a workgroup

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Mirrors... use them...

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> 🪞♿️

Which marginalized group are you insulting now?

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> Personal vendettas should be considered offtopic imo

rottenwheel you have a WIP CCS, i expect you to carry yourself better in the community workgroup channel. potty mouth insults and comments on peoples appearance (although there was back and forth) are not good reading

plowsof: so... how long should I stay in the corner for? d2gg9evh47fn9z.cloudfront.net/800px_COLOURBOX5516170.jpg

Shat

what** back and forth? The gay comment was uncalled for

As was the trannie comment, or the wheelchair one

<s​iren:kernal.eu> midipoet: which country do you think would be appropriate for an LLC in this case? Contrary to what most people think here, it wouldn't be so unusual to have a legal entity behind Monero because this is how many large (non-crypto) FOSS projects also operate. We could also find a fiscal host entity that doesn't solely focus on Monero.

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> I doubt putting a LLC entity in charge of managing the monero project in general to be a good idea

<s​iren:kernal.eu> I think the latter would prevent corruption to a degree even.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> While not keeping that entity responsible for any sanctions if they were to happen

Monero is a registered entity, isnt it

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> oh i see, the look in the mirror emoji "🪞♿️", lets sweep that under "comments on peoples appearance" / libera policy warning, or, are we using cards now? rottenwheel, yellow card! you are still getting a gift for helping out on -site today but im disappointed! we're role playing here, and that kinda stuff is totally out of character (OOC) / offtopic / bad etiquette IMO pls continue

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Because they're just a fiscal host

<s​iren:kernal.eu> If you don't know what a fiscal host for FOSS projects is, here are some examples:

<s​iren:kernal.eu> opencollective.com/europe

<s​iren:kernal.eu> nlnet.nl

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Monerokon's current entity (TE) could also be used for this purpose. TE would not own Monero project/brand but it could handle donations and keep books.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> If we had a fiscal host there would be consequences for incidents like how the CCS wallet was emptied and there was no post mortem.

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> I do not support this

<s​iren:kernal.eu> So there would be incentive to not steal from the project or do corruption overall.

One little note, if I may... As far as I know siren, nihilist and xmrfamily weren't around for the community/space fallout, and y'all, along with midipoet, seem to drag Monero, the project, with the issue. Let me be clear, the LLC was going to be registered for Community Workgroup, not the whole project.

To siren point, the goal was exactly that, handle donation, keep books. Give structure and formalization to the workgroup.

<c​t:xmr.mx> imo the biggest long term threat is still regulation, so I dont think adding more legal liabilities is a wise move

Otherwise it is very loose for contributors like sgp, nm90, Diego, xmrscott, even, to keep using funds from their pocket, or mix personal bank accounts with community funds, or viceversa.

+1 ct

Forming an LLC with a bank account registered under it, would allow a legal "multisig", accountability, even tax benefits, depending on jurisdiction, etc.

Gf pays for the infra, what are u talking about

<s​iren:kernal.eu> For this reason the best option seems to find a host that we don't control. Worst case scenario is them showing us the door.

Sgp pays for sgp's own initiatives

The whole appropriating community assets, or "serving EU users" while the LLC is formed in USA makes little to no sense.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Well it sucks this project is basically doomed with corruption

ye...

<s​iren:kernal.eu> But who cares I guess, as long as the money comes back and people don't steal as much it will continue existing. Or someone will fork it.

someone made a comment one of these days that struck home, as discouraging as it sounded. it was Dan's. libera.monerologs.net/monero-community/20240703#c394458

"Here they give them the wallet back"

Speaking of... luigi1111 monero-project/meta #923#issuecomment-2194105468

How is that discouraging?

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> This 💯

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> In usa creating llc doesn't really do shit. Banks still cunts when it comes to opening business bank accounts

<s​iren:kernal.eu> dukenukem: Yes, I've seen the GitHub thread and offered to help as well. Unfortunately this sounds like a "culture" issue. People religiously trust some of the core members. It's cult-like. This incident wouldn't have been forgotten so fast or excused in another software project.

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> In usa creating llc doesn't really do shit. Banks still cunts when it comes to opening business bank accounts for crypto related

luigi was supposed to hold the wallet til end of march, but then he decided he'd hold on a bit longer

<s​iren:kernal.eu> A bank account isn't required.

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Monero tech amazing. People still idiots can't really update that

"forgotten so fast or excused in another software project." It would have been reported to the community in less than 60 days too

siren Agreed...

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> I'm just saying llc isn't going to do that much

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Fraud/embezzlement/ scams still happen all the time in businesses

rotten, with all due respect, Serving EU customers absolutely, 100%, means an an LLC in the US is required to be compliant with EU regs.

zzz.

I would be happy to make a sizeable bet with you on this

No need.

If you don't care about that fine, but it's not an unfounded fear

Where are the EU customers in a Community Workgroup LLC?

I'm practice it may well mean absolutely nothing

What is the service or product being "sold" here?

Hypothetically speaking.

They would have been (if i recall) registered users of a mastadon/discord instance (i can't remember which one). Whatever that monero space thing was on (if i recall). PLUS there were other plans to develop the community workgroup, which may have meant other liabilities. You'd have to ask them what they wanted to develop.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> How many businesses do you run to know this? There is no way on earth you could get away with the fact that all your funds suddenly disappeared overnight.

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Ftx? I am not telling you shit about me

<s​iren:kernal.eu> And they magically reappeared later on lmao.

We encountered the same practical need for events, and after some open and transparent discussion with all, went with some form of non-profit. If i recall, the last LLC went straight to a CCS with little to no discussion with anyone. Then it all blew up

<s​iren:kernal.eu> midipoet: Potentially enterprise support could be offered, sponsorships could be accepted (eg. small paid banners placed in GitHub releases, documentation etc.). And of course the main source of income would be donations.

What did you expect? If events did the same, with self appointed directors, there would have been the same "wtf"

midipoet: Mastodon, I think.

If i recall, in events, we nominated people and the community voted

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Onecoin and Ruja Ignatova who is rn fbi most wanted(big reward increase lately)

midipoet: so it'd come down to GDPR and data protection laws and blabla at that point, no?

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> 100% I support non profit

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Fuck llc

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> If you choose to have a LLC, you're opening the door to regulations, that's all centralisation leads to eventually. Those at the head of a LLC have a target painted on their backs in case of non-compliances

Yes, a lot of bla bla

siren the plot thickens when you factor in that the "refund" of the stolen funds was exactly the same amount + 21. The supply cap of BTC. lol

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> 😅 I'm not expert in eu regulations to give good opinion

What i am trying to say is that "the issue" was surmountable. It just required more thought and discussion

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> Why not follow how Tor handles their organisation ? Its a non profit organisation

midipoet: why would you expect us to nominate people and vote if those "three" you mentioned before had been carrying out all community activities, single-handedly, for years. 3-4++

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> Why not follow how Tor handles their organisation ? As a non profit organisation

I even remember a comment made by someone that just said that: "monero community should try harder than just setting up an LLC and moving on"

nihilist: yes, this was suggested. Never explored. Though MAGIC now exists

midipoet: yeah, gdpr, data protection, all that tends to be blabla to me...

Which seems a very well run org

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> Honestly follow the tor organisation model, its worked well for them so far afaik

yeah, i would agree. Personally, i would like a co-op

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Smart suggestion

With all non-anonymous network participants as signatories. I think that would carry the most weight

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Yeah even MAGIC would work fine here. CCS should be avoided.

rotten: in response to your "who should be directors" question. Because it allows the community to communicate easily as to whether they trust the de facto leaders or not.

Hmm...

Surely it would have been a formality if everything was alright with everyone

<3​21bob321:monero.social> When will there monero corporation

I think there already is

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> I would like to add to ballot as dictator 😅

But anyways!!

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> I would like to add myseld to ballot as dictator 😅

There is DEFINITELY an entity that holds a protective patent

Copyright*

or defensive patent, or whatever it's called

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Copyright enforcement is ..... funny

actually it was geonic that waved a flag at that too

yeah, your boyfriend george nicholas was stirring the pot, as he usually does... the other day.

(rightly so in my opinion)

dman I started reading the scrollback and burnt my oatmeal :(

*damn

nioCat: drama too good today?

gm btw!

never ending, it shouldn't be this difficult to figure out

I vote dan bob

midipoet: monero-project/meta #730 here you go!

nioCat: who are we and where are our goats?

I know, I have no nothing to say here, but I'm shocked to read this idea to form "legal" entity. This is like negociating with the extorcionist. Why the heck would you admint an "authority"? Why would you care about fiat? For me Monero is first and formost to secure freedom and starve the beast, for me LLC is just insane. Best stay far a way from governments, they are the corruptest, why would you put even trust in them?

+1 vthor

yes pay for things without banks even if not possible to do so

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> I mean a LLC is about making FIAT profit isn't it ?

monero is subject to any country or their laws, idk what were even going on abt

Is not* subject

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Monero pty ltd

<o​cean:matrix.thisisjoes.site> I propose a Monero Coin Company with myself as CEO

not necessarily nihilist

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Ocean how many coins will there be in circulation

I call dibs on registration in yemen

Or NK. Wouldnt this LLC or nonprofit have to avoid doing "biz" with any "sanctioned" countries or their citizens?

<o​cean:matrix.thisisjoes.site> Dan (Is not the man & Braxman Tomsparks Advocate) Backup: we'll implement an incremental burning policy so everybody is guranteed lambos

I'm quite sure we have russian and NK contributors. We definitely fund russian work

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> Picture the following : We believe everyone should be able to explore the internet with privacy. We are the Monero Project, a 501(c)(3) US nonprofit. We advance human rights and defend your financial privacy online through free software and networks. Meet our team.

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Nioc is in NK

Would this american community be allowed to fund russians?

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> Picture the following : We believe everyone should be able to transact with privacy. We are the Monero Project, a 501(c)(3) US nonprofit. We advance human rights and defend your financial privacy online through free software and networks. Meet our team.

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Neg

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Sanctioned

nihilist this works only if you are a asset to exact that governemnt what exactly in my view defeats the purpose

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> Wut, I don't understand the issue exactly

See what is the single point what makes one distrust the Tor project (for me is the closeness to gov and what happend about Jake and the drama). I need to continue to work, but please don't fuck up Monero, I relay on it for my future, I even thinking on daily onboarding people although I normally try to stay away from people. Monero is this one single hope for a better future in a evil world where people following a long with the beast create the real

evil, instead of starving the beast. And I can guarantee you, if you give leverage to any goverenment if will be used against you, from government perspective you are ALREADY the enemy.

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> Makes sense, but just saying a LLC gives a lot more leverage to the government to control it, rather than a nonprofit organisation

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> I'll let everyone comment on that. But yea agreed, the less leverage given to governments, the better.

You can have monero private and secure only if staying away from any gov, if you are close you will be aproached, and bullied into doing things you never planned to do. nonprofit is the same thing, you admint a government has authority over you and you enter a game where you do not control the (changing and adapting) rules.

we were originally talking about paying for the assets of this one channel, something from many years ago

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> I will make monero non profit org soon, if anyone cares, I don't have specifications atm but monero needs it's own advocates in cryptocurrency space.

MAGIC exists @xmrfamily

and _nobody_ speaks for monero

I was before all the time thinking how to create a entity construct for biz, but in the end, when I read what is going on in the world, you can fuck it, because gov makes anyway whatever it wants, it doens't help you in any way and there is no bridge from two worlds, or you are in one world or the other, but if you step into the world you get fucked with one leg, they will pull you completely in their world and the 1 meter long 30cm diameter dildo is

there already waiting for each of us :D (only laughing to not cry)

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> Don't rush things, need to consider everything first

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Obviously

nioCat: but the endgame of that is that every workgroup is an LLC, no?

So whatever entity you form.. is not the voice of or representative of "monero"

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Magic doesn't really deal with regulation issues in usa?

Complyfirst did, no?

don't see why MRL shouldn't be an LLC. Way easier to hire devs

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> I want to influence usa/ my state policy/regulations

Why would you deal with regulations? Fuck them

midipoet - how about russian devs? North korean devs?

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Cause I'm a p2p trader?

midipoet: didn't seem to be unless it was a good idea

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Regulations effect me and people I support

those regulations have nothing to do with monero as a project

midipoet: we have magic to hire devs lol

Gov is the problem not xmr not regulated

nioCat: fair.

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> 100%

Get rid of the stupidity of needing a gov and there is no need to get regulated, you handle only your problem along.

well then maybe we should make an LLC and apply for a payment services licence. Might stop the delistings

midipoet: would that help me in New North Korea?

the regulation is extortion, it's the only purpose on the end, why to negotiate with extorsionists instead of extinct this usless crap.

The minimum annual fee for any MAGIC Fund (unless specifically waived by the board) is $5000. This will be charged at the start of the Fund’s formation and will be charged annually thereafter.

midipoet it would not as long you are enable people to trade without knowledge of criminal organizations. see Samurai...

This includes the collection of your ID and tax information. We will conduct sanctions checks.

Magic eligibility ^

Well, it is pointless, but I'm shocked and but I have only 24 hours a day (and taxes kill me still at least 5 hours of them)

Rip russian contributors

nioCat: we can apply there too.

ofrnxmr: that is the wording of magic?

Yes

is that for donations or devs?

Under eligibility

thx

Recipients

Serious question, all of wanting a goverment aproved organization, what is your intrest in a privacy coin? Why not BTC and choose the color and topping of you dildo (used by gov to fuck you)?

"However, as a nonprofit organization registered under U.S. tax laws, MAGIC Grants is required to comply with certain laws when disbursing funds to grant recipients."

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> It's different for every individual?

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> The reasons

Every privacy coin with a company behind it has been made to fold

will read later, now eating my burnt oatmeal. Price too low to make a fresh batch :(

Will have 100msgs waiting fkr you upon return 🫡

<3

< midipoet> well then maybe we should make an LLC and apply for a payment services licence. Might stop the delistings

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Litmocracy.blogspot.com/2024/01/letters-of-support.html?m=1

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Dave Scotese is LM trader who got arrested for money laundering/running unlicensed msb and theoretically non profit organization could help support people like him. Dave is being sentenced in 12 days. People who sell monero, I want to support them

Don't understand why people keep conflating the whole project with a workgroup formalizing as an LLC/non-profit...

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> You could argue that non profit shouldn't support people's legal cases but, if they did possibly receive more donations

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> You could argue that non profit shouldn't support people's legal cases but, if they did possibly receive more donations/higher fund

<c​t:xmr.mx> vthor: you are wrong. You do contribute, so you do have the right to state your opinions.

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Terrible idea

<c​t:xmr.mx> ^regarding your first message, I hate that matrix -> irc replies dont work

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> I'm to lazy to get on irc

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> Honestly yea a LLC will most likely create problems imo

rotten: there is definitely a case for MRL becoming an LLC to more easily pay devs and invoices.

throw xmr at DataHoarder and maybe he will find time to make a proper bridge

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> Don't paint a target on your backs

-policy as well, so we can sue people

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Non profit can do?

even -off-topic so they can get sued and keep the flames contained

midipoet: explain why MAGIC can't fulfill those needs since it's already established, registered, all that fluff...

It can

the pay devs and invoices has been done already, few times.

It has

So why couldn't -community do that too?

why form one for MRL then?

for limited liability, one assumes

wat.

nioCat: funds would be appreciated, I have a better bridge in the works that was done from scratch. Works well, just trying to get edge cases all nice

-community form an LLC???

so we've gone full circle and now you're looking for a community LLC?

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> There is a difference between paying devs and being a msb (money service business, in usa fincen license+ state msb license)

No. -community not form an LLC but keep paying invoices

if MRL can do it, why can't -community?

what invoices are we paying again?

I don't know

also, why suddenly the LLC talk drives you to suing people?

lol

Any invoices?

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> 😆

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> Monero as a whole is already in multiple governments' target list, dont give them anything they can use against the project as a whole

so anyways, why did we get into all this to begin with?

We are going round in circles. But essentially, i think we can all agree that an LLC is not mission critical and never was

lol

<c​t:xmr.mx> wasnt talking to you, but to vthor - you were just a victim of the matrix delay

DataHoarder: thx, I will send you something for sure. Maybe we can get a donation fund organized

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> And crypto community lots of people judge monero as "criminal coin"

So when the idea was rejected by -community, it shouldn't have caused a vacuum in the community.

DataHoarder: you could open a Kuno fundraiser. :D

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> It's not a criminal coin. People are....." insult of choice"

midipoet: it wasn't rejected by -community, sir. was rejected by a dozen of very vocal and dedicated individuals.

regardless, community hasn't been what it was and won't be because those actors aren't around anymore, not even in space.

time for a -community 2.0. \o/

<s​iren:kernal.eu> dukenukem: do you remember the names of those actors? I'm curious about who they are.

Agree. Let's start an LLCv2. what do you say? Me you and ofrnxmr as directors

<m-relay> <x​mrfamily:matrix.org> And crypto community lots of people judge monero as "criminal coin" and they will do so as long you don't praise gov, pay fine all your taxes and choose you dildo AND have a open ledger, why to care about them?

siren yeah, of course.

siren what's the point of knowing who they are, though?

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> I want to help people not be idiots? So want them to realize they need xmr not btc and eth

Where do scrapped CCS deas end up? They are still in the gitlab, right? Just never merged?

so we know who the "untrusted" individuals are, that wanted to make XMR a corporation?

midipoet: I would prefer to become homeless and starve to death before working with ofrn.

To be honest, i am still not convicted that you aren't ofrnxmr

LOL

*convinced

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> I told vik there should be monero meetup in Philadelphia. Still waiting for that day to happen 🥲

Yeah, I am totally ofrnxmr. No doubt.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> dukenukem: I want to understand their background and perspective in this.

siren Fair, I'll PM you on Matrix.

x​mrfamily did vik respond to you?

plowsof: can you confirm ofrnxmr and I are the same person?

midipoet... Dukenukem is rotten

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Maybe he's fresh

<s​iren:kernal.eu> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…/kernal.eu/VySELtgyTYaRmYfDDWPwXCEJ

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…matrix.org/bxSSHmYXfmtPcvAkTyDalmkv

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> what

midipoet, did you suggest that ofrnxmr + ofrnxmr + midipoet be the directors?

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Did Monero ever try to get a stand in FOSDEM?

<0​xfffc:monero.social> I think the beauty of monero is its decentralized nature!

<0​xfffc:monero.social> Both governance, and technical aspects.

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> What is the current status of the monero project anyway ?

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> Organizationally speaking

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> A bunch of random people collaborating on a git repo ? And that's it ?

<0​xfffc:monero.social> And that is supposed to be a bad thing? You haven’t heard anything about open governance!

I think there are some large entities/nyms with a lot of responsibility and control, then a load of mission critical devs and cryptographers below, and then the rest of us.

Take out Majestic, Cake, a couple more orgs (some already gone), a few of Core, and a few devs, and the whole thing ends (only my cynical opinion).

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> Honestly I consider that a great option, if that's viable for the project needs

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Take out all the orgs, monero still lives 💜

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> > <@m-relay:monero.social> <m​idipoet> Take out Majestic, Cake, a couple more orgs (some already gone), a few of Core, and a few devs, and the whole thing ends (only my cynical opinion).

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Take out all the orgs,/devs/etc monero still lives 💜

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> Very Minimal attack surface to get attacked, its literally individuals making use of their freedom to express themselves, through code

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> Very Minimal attack surface, its literally individuals making use of their freedom to express themselves, through code

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> And if those developers maintain their anonymity, they won't get the tornado cash treatment

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> Very resilient way for a project to keep going

<0​xfffc:monero.social> Human hierarchy’s tend to get corrupted over time. To prevent this corruption imho open governance is best approach.

there is no reliace on majestic, cake, core, or any specific dev

<0​xfffc:monero.social> Every human hierarchy. ( even civilizations, read Spengler, Ibn-Khaldun )

Idk what midi is talking about

Acting as if this project rides on the shoukders of cake, majestic, and clre

When it really rides on the shoulders of devs who (in a lot of cases) have no idea who one another are

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> 😂🤣😂

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> What about the people who use monero?

with _nobody_ telling them what to do. Devs review whatever they want to, they choose what part of the codebase theyd like to work on

xmrfamily, what i meant was that its the opposite of what midi said

Its not a top down project, its a bottom up

Similar to a democratic republic, its not a democraxy

<0​xfffc:monero.social> Exactly this👆🏻

Community who cant write code may make suggestion, but ultimately they cant force any dev to do anything (except by voting with $ and hashrate)

x​mrfamily you might want to ask vik again, he's a busy guy

siren hyc used to go to FOSDEM, not sure how much monero was part of that

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> I'm busy too. He didn't respond to my last chats that's why I'm not a big fan of him atm.

siren not anything else that I am aware of

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> I don't have issues with vik

Xmrfamily, hes flying on private jets n shit and has 60 ppl asking him to do stuff for them

If i was him, i would probably get my secretary to answer all of my msgs

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Vik does a lot for monero community.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> vik is awesome

<j​ohn_r365:monero.social> So, I maintain a timeline of potentially important milestones in Monero's history (resilience365.com/monero-timeline)

<j​ohn_r365:monero.social> The more time passes since events, the easier it is to pick out key ones.

<j​ohn_r365:monero.social> That said, the last update I have is March 2023 - where the limit to the tx_extra field (1060 bytes) was added

<j​ohn_r365:monero.social> I was thinking of adding mention of that last big "spamming" of the network, and then add mention of the new "Stressnet"

<j​ohn_r365:monero.social> I'm optimistic stressnet will be fruitful for spotting scaling bugs/issues, but I could be getting ahead of my skis

<j​ohn_r365:monero.social> Any thoughts on the addition of those, and/or suggestions for recent new events to add?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> oh neat

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> have this

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> list of random, obscure facts and events

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Monero inflation bug

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Haveno ZCash drama

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Bytecoin

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Monero guerilla ops

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Monero.com squatter

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> nvs is satoshi

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Mymonero honeypot

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Paper xmr

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Rodent incident

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> L3

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Kovri

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> haha look it even has the diego drama on it

<j​ohn_r365:monero.social> gosh, that brings back some memories

<j​ohn_r365:monero.social> Project Coral Reef - 4,865 XMR raised

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> hey at least it is still up!

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> or at least was when i last checked

<j​ohn_r365:monero.social> lol

<j​ohn_r365:monero.social> what's L3 in the above context?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> this was for a iceberg video i wanted to do years ago

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> this is L1

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> L1

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> /Xmr/ general

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Monerochan

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Darknet adoption

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Funds don't show up in wallet

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Wownero

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Asmongold / place

<j​ohn_r365:monero.social> i should probably add MoneroV to that timeline, had forgotten about it, good suggestion

Mb - are you copy pasting?

"Human hierarchy’s tend to get corrupted over time". full ack

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i did paste what i had in my iceberg file yes

Okok

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…matrix.org/FIfSwxBIaiipArnOjpCbbwYu

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i also have images

nooo minko, whyyyyyy

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Why haveno not listed?

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> > <@john_r365:monero.social> So, I maintain a timeline of potentially important milestones in Monero's history (resilience365.com/monero-timeline)

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> >

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> > The more time passes since events, the easier it is to pick out key ones.

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Add haveno pleasee

<j​ohn_r365:monero.social> nothing has been listed since 2023 :) so that's partly why

<j​ohn_r365:monero.social> could list the "reto" launch (?)

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> it might also make sense to add the monerokons

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> And LM shutdown

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Not really imo, they are annual event?

<j​ohn_r365:monero.social> big fan of monerokon, but unsure they're important enough for the context

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> could link to a playlist with the talks 🤷

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> as a single point

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> "LM shutdown and subsequent launch of haveno"

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Lm shutting down, haveno being released, reto becoming live. I think it's a crazy story

MoneroKon is not important for Monero's timeline!?!??!!?!?!?!?!!!!!

the things one has to read in this psych ward, smh.

<j​ohn_r365:monero.social> lol

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> yeah monerokon kinda spawned FCMPs if i remember correctly

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> or monerotopia

<j​ohn_r365:monero.social> all the way back in Miami Monerotopia (I think) Aamir Taaki mentioned wanting Monero to move to something like zkStarks - and Luke Parker was there - but unsure that's the genesis

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> the point is that monerokon is actually kinda important

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> yearly points in the timeline also make it easier to contextualize the other stuff happening throughout the years

<j​ohn_r365:monero.social> ok, point made, ha. meatspace events are actually important

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> I think monerotopia cooler than monerokon

<j​ohn_r365:monero.social> will add LM shutdown, haveno reto launch and alllll the Monerokons

spice it up and add DoJ admission of taking XMR seized out of circulation! nitter.poast.org/binaryFate/status/1314320645279416320

Source: nitter.poast.org/binaryFate/status/1314320645279416320

screw you, clipboard. nitter.poast.org/binaryFate/status/1314318172502274050

Should add "rottenwheel unbanned" too

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> we all know that this is a meme

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> they use the seized xmr for funding CIA stuff just like they did when they used crack money to fund anti communism rebels

"we all know"

Do yOu HaVe A SoUrCe FoR ThAt!!?!?!!

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> Monero stickers in Kabul

<j​ohn_r365:monero.social> monerobull: "they use the seized xmr for funding CIA stuff" -> who knows, but the link binaryFate shared doesn't say that.

<j​ohn_r365:monero.social> It just says: "In most circumstances, the Department does not liquidate seized or forfeited AECs, as doing so allows them to re-enter the stream of commerce for potential future criminal use."

LOL

"Monero stickers in Kabul"

<j​ohn_r365:monero.social> i guess without proof of keys, the seized XMR could <anywhere>

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> yeah yeah they are using them for criminal use themself for sure

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> even if its just making controlled buys from markets

...cue the news... the "Monero stickers in Kabul" - a piece of paper with the monero logo on it, taped to a pole. x.com/spirobel/status/1591360222517690368

😆

john_r365 the quick facts thing and the timeline, great ones. ++

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> I achieved more with my pocket money than the US gov with 20 trillion dollars in 2 decades

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> great symbolic victory for Monero

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> without Monero it would not be possible to pay people across the world

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> no matter how unstable everything is

Bet mom is very proud of you!

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> who are you btw? your vibe seems ....

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> <<<intense>>>

When mirror airdrop?

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> This not true? Fbi sent xmr to nsa agent when doing uc on him

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> Siezed crypto goes up for auction?

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> justice.gov/opa/pr/former-nsa-emplo…-arrested-espionage-related-charges

<x​mrfamily:matrix.org> 22 years he got I think. They sent him xmr(based on price at the time but they never stated it was xmr)

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> sometimes

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> the 2 billion dollars worth of btc that the germans seized is just being dumped on all CEXs

<s​hortwavesurfer2009:monero.social> Any rough idea of when to expect a new monerod release?

New monerod release?

<s​hortwavesurfer2009:monero.social> No, any eta on the next one?

don't think there's any ETA on a point release, or version bump.

wait for loogi's merges. (?)

<s​hortwavesurfer2009:monero.social> Ah, k

<s​hortwavesurfer2009:monero.social> M2049r seems to only update monerujo when monerod updates which is why i was wondering

<s​hortwavesurfer2009:monero.social> Any rough idea of when to expect a new monerod release? <<>> 2 months ago

Habemus new CCS proposal! repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/475

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> how is he asking for?

14:35:48 <dukenukem> DataHoarder: you could open a Kuno fundraiser. :D

reason I haven't opened CCS or similar is that energy usually doesn't go much further, but sometimes I get focus to work on projects continously

DataHoarder: whose energy? you mean your personal will power to get stuff done?

thanks for bridging revuo's room so fast by the way. :D

personal energy :)

gotchu.

the power was during that G5 storm, wild stuff

g5 storm?

solar storm, a few months ago

ahh, yes.

Boog900 full time work on Cuprate (3 months) has moved to funding! ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/boog_3_months_cuprate_2.html

tldr on the llc ^

/ignore geonic

also, as I said privately to nioc, we don’t know how many more people would’ve quit if the LLC idea had gone through or what the long-term ramifications would’ve been. How many future contributors would we have lost? Unknown.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> monerobull it's time you do some trolling: repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/471

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> :/

luigi: what is a mockery is deciding for the community and asking them to fund your decision

unless this is prefunded tesla-style and the ccs is just to say it came from community

geonic better call his muppets to action!

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Hehe. It had better votes than diegos

monerobull: you definitely don't offer the same service! repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/c…als/-/merge_requests/470#note_25225

I wonder what services diego offers that mb doesn’t and how that conclusion was reached

The project is not accepting applications for a paid maintainer position at this time. A well-functioning website workgroup could select one that could subsequently apply for a CCS if needed, though often open source maintainers are unpaid.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Well duh

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Finger on the pulse of the community, that's where the value is at /s

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> $100k job right there

nioCat: that's a nice reply.

“soft skills guy needed, named diego”

I guess you saw it on your closed CCS :)

oh goody, I have a stethoscope and bp cuff

is there anything else I need?

so mb should or shouldn’t open his own ccs? conflicting guidance here

please reread

I think diego will also be lead mod (as i understand it)

nioCat: lol.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> I don't think Luigi wants me

nioCat: mine was mostly a parody of the other 2, tbqh.

Lead mod across all platforms, if i read correctly

ofc

told plowsof via PM when I opened it.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> I do think Luigi wants to give rehar a lot of money like in the good old days

nioCat: is this luigi’s comment somewhere

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Lead mod lmao

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> After being gone for 2 years

as noted above it was on rotten's CCS

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Yep yep corruption

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> And showing back up when the money faucet might open again

1) need well-functioning website workgroup 2) which could select one that could subsequently apply for a CCS if needed

although often is unpaid

so per luigi the website maintenance stuff is an unpaid position

could subsequently apply for a CCS if needed

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> And I already do the modding and community pulse

so that should be removed from diego’s ccs

I could maintain, just show me what button to push

geonic> “soft skills guy needed, named diego” <= correct, this is why I worked with him on it. I don't have another candidate currently. Community is welcome to approve it or not. This is not a mockery

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> So what exactly is worth 100k here

geonic> so per luigi the website maintenance stuff is an unpaid position <= not necessarily, but xmr maintainers have always been unpaid

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Are we still on this

dan bob, are you new here?

geonic> so that should be removed from diego’s ccs <= Diego isn't going to be website maintainer.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Luigi it's because their mostly fucking loaded

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Its like a broken record

could be clarified better

what is he going to be?

well bring something new the dan, please :)

*then dan

ideally a website workgroup bootstrapper/coordinator. Dunno if he stays on longterm

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Luigi it's because their mostly fucking loaded <= no I don't think so

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Sounds like a manager

and no one else in this room is fit to bootstrap a website workgroup?

or even in the community as a whole

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Plowsof

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> I don't think Luigi wants me <= your current sarcastic posture while interacting with and toward me is certainly not helping your case of you being helpful to me or the project

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> I bootstrapped an entire forum that got so popular someone feels the need to ddos it in this very moment :3

geonic> and no one else in this room is fit to bootstrap a website workgroup? <= do you have someone? All possibilities do not need to be exhausted before considering Diego

nioCat for maintainer!

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> I'm not sarcastic when I say I don't think you'd want me. You reached out to Diego, an insane thing to do considering their history.

depending on your view of it, sure

I’ve seen nothing from monerobull over the years that shows he is being unhelpful to the project. Actually the opposite

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Monero.town still down?

sarcastic comments aside

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> ^

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> So yeah

Becore we consider Diego for the role I think we should consider this statement from the Core team

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> We might get a mirrored frontend behind CDN at some point

“ We consider this pattern to have been a breach of trust, and a direct contradiction with rehrar’s role.”

<3​21bob321:monero.social> That would help

luigi1111: Swear on my Venezuelan ass I'm not throwing a dart at you with this but looks like status quo reads: luigi stays as lead project maintainer and CCS runner... because there's nobody else fit for the role... much like current Diego's situation, no?

I don’t recall Core making a similar statement about monerobull

Cue meme... it's not much but it's what we got.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> > A breach of trust

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Ah yes, perfect candidate

dukenukem: perhaps something like that

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Like loosing 2500xmr

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Attacking diego and yet this happened and nothing changed

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Short memories i guess on certain things

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> People have stepped down from roles for much less than losing about half of all funding due to gross negligence, true.

Anyone else know how to use git?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Imagine if Angela Merkel lost 100 billion euros

i think the last thing we want right now is luigi to step down

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I been around. Not nearly as much true, but I've been here and contributing in small ways.

also

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Mod role is still laughable

he didn’t lose it. one of two people likely stole it

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Plowsof is around way way more and yet we have CSAM stay up for hours

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> i can help with matrix moderation if needed, your call

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Lololol

midipoet and I have volunteered as matrix mods

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Previous experience as mods?

a few facebook groups (:

facebook 0_o

:)

#disqualified

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> I beg plowsof to just mod me all the time

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Tbh Mod you need to be calm

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Obnoxiously sacharrine some would say

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Not use it for personal vendettas etc

<c​t:xmr.mx> yeah can we pls hire monerobull for emergency modding in this room? 2.5k people and only one active mod is less then ideal

@seen obnoxiously saccharine

sucralose?

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Think its up to heir fuhrer scott to give mod powers to you

ct in reality all mods in Resolutions room can moderate this and all rooms banhammer is part of.

So no, not "one active mod", there are like 5-6 with access to nuke people left and right.

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Mods need to be present regulary

<3​21bob321:monero.social> And to be seen

Does Dan run the worldwide moderation guidelines now?

luigi: will Core retract its statement about Diego?

dan and bob 4 mods

<3​21bob321:monero.social> So rotten you have been a mod

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Nearly all of the mods are gone

You can see them in the Resolutions room all you want. lol.

no I can't

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Sgp just left the fucking monero discord and now there's no owner

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> are they all in the US timezone or something ?

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Fck discord

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Of course

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Their is that

Dan qu.ax/fyBe.png

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Could have still thought about it for one second before leaving

print that and there you have them! you can see them regularly!

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> you guys should have mods covering at least 2 timezones i'd say

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> EU and US

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Northen and southern hemisphere

I mean, I see both EU and US covered in that list.

did he try to turn the discord into an llc too

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Usdt

Now... are they actively reading the rooms and making sure the CoC is being respected?

Audience_laughs.ogg

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Always

<3​21bob321:monero.social> I see them now

<3​21bob321:monero.social> In the ether

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Also they’re the pro active modding team

geonic: I don't know

Why is the only person deemed untrustworthy by Core being pushed down our throat?

Cause he is probably still more trustworthy than most?

<d​ave.jp:matrix.org> Are you willing to step in instead ?

better the devil you know...

I am but I don’t know how to use git

(:

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Careful guys, I might hire another person who isn't thrilled to work on Monero at this time in his life.

It’s not like you’re known for outsourcing or anything

the breach of trust from my recollection was rather narrow in scope, basically about hiring sarang without us knowing. He was trustworthy in his usual monero work

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Why is that a breach of trust?

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Core owned sarang ?

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Or exclusive contract?

<x​mrscott:monero.social> What Matrix rooms specifically are you seeing it stay up for hours?

“A part of rehrar's role was to keep his finger on the pulse of the community and the project, aiming to know and report to the Core Team anything that might be of interest or concern to the Monero project at large. We note that at the end of December 2019, during the 36C3 congress in Leipzig, Germany, rehrar had the opportunity to speak in

person with three members of the Core Team, and no mention was made regarding the Firo commits. Unfortunately, we feel that a similar pattern occurred with many of the community concerns where a proactive approach of bringing all these facts to us in a prompt and clear manner was not taken. The culminating example of this was rehrar securing a one

year, full-time contract for sarang with another project, which we only discovered very recently.“

and now we’re hiring him to keep his finger on the pulse of the community again

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Pretty sure it was the main monero room

Can’t blame diego again. Fool me once..

<3​21bob321:monero.social> I just remeber the 24/25 incident

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> That too

<3​21bob321:monero.social> It was spammed for hrs

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Had to wait for plowsof to appear

<3​21bob321:monero.social> They dont even have a banned wordlist setup or flood protection

<x​mrscott:monero.social> Are you aware of a built-in Matrix control that offers either?

<3​21bob321:monero.social> There is a bot used?

<3​21bob321:monero.social> github.com/the-draupnir-project/Draupnir

<3​21bob321:monero.social> I have “finger on the pulse”

<x​mrscott:monero.social> I will comment that I know the existing bot used does offer flood protection after events within the mining room

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Cool falcon

<x​mrscott:monero.social> Looks like Draupnir is not without its limits either. Wordlist ban is constrained by room join date of the user

<x​mrscott:monero.social> It would be nice though if Matrix had an automated control that did CSAM hashing detection and response like other platforms such as Discord

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Woah guys check this out

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> reddit.com/r/monerosupport/s/xo8R1gaEtH

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Someones got out of prison lol

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> After the initial 2-3 months I don't think I've seen anyone complain about this

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Yeah euro chat control

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Ban wordlist applies to all

<3​21bob321:monero.social> New or old users

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Someone posted an article on .town last week that said matrix is actually the premier hub for csam... especially on their own homeserver matrix.org

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Depends. I’ve modded in a room which was constantly under attack with gore and attempted doxxing

<3​21bob321:monero.social> This is where i found out the clients ban options are usesless, which is where a bot helps

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> /xmr/ has been closed for months

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Try and ban 6 people constantly spam posting with element client, it crashes it

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> (the chatroom, closed to new joins)

monerobull hmm, article or video?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> There may have been a video too

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> But also a long article

If anyone's interested...

Matrix - A Pit of Abuse with Government Ties iv.datura.network/watch?v=W8KEuAEYjQ4

nihilist likes the link, I'm sure. ;)

I pledge 3 xmr to fund monerobull’s first month of trying to kickstart a website workgroup

luigi1111: will you give him a month to try before hiring someone else?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Next time can you please tell me stuff like that before publicly pledging anything and forcing my hand 😭

Only if you agree of course :)

can we have multiple spearheaders? Does that make progress more or less likely? Does monerobull want to be part of a website workgroup long term even if unfunded?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Sure

I’d like to be in it too

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> But to be upfront: I don't like the redesign proposed in the current CCS

do you have website specific skills and capability to work with others and evaluate their skill levels and contribution capabilities?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Same

the current CCS redesign is closed

CCS for website redesign*

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Oh great

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Rip

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> I can deal with static sites

we can probably keep JS off?

anyway these aren't really community discussion

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Of course

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Most of my experience is around stuff not directly related to the content but related

<3​21bob321:monero.social> I think web site maintainer is git orientated job

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Like configuring S3 buckets or domain stuff

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> I have some experience with git yeah

actually merging stuff is git yeah, but expertise of the website itself is very useful for informing the what and why and how

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Most of my experience is around stuff not directly related to the content but still related to the site as a whole

anyway the difficulty of the task at hand is "organizing" a "decentralized" "self-organized" group. It may take some babysitting.

<3​21bob321:monero.social> I doubt it will happen

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Everyone has to agree lol

Not necessarily. Just need people who are excited to work on it

<3​21bob321:monero.social> But for instant ccs,people wont all agree

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Website is more objective

<3​21bob321:monero.social> For website maintainer needs to show that you have experience in running a website (not cpanel) and use git with commit history for proof no?

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Cant yolo on getmonero.org

luigi isn’t handing out merge powers until a website workgroup is functioning and a leader has emerged from within

so I’ve heard

Just caught up, still dont know what i missed

that sounds right.

Why closed 441 @luigi

new contributor makes a PR from patch-1 branch with a useless commit title, are you excited now

441 = seraphis review

are we calling this a group work interview now?

where's the pseudo mod telling us to take it to -site?

Dukenukem is wondering where i am, but forgot that he muted me

plowsof wasnt 441 supposed to be deferred to MRL?

it was stuck and there was a comment about not needing it now (?)

repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/c…als/-/merge_requests/441#note_24681

diego said there was room in their schedule, but, im ok with closing as theres no push from MRL for it. can always be re-opened if need be. MRL are busy with FCMP++

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> It was made a few days before Kayaba came in with his FCMP proposal stuff. Attention shifted to that so this seems not necessary.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> It can obviously be done alongside right now, but I think resources are best spent on FCMP right now.

Got it, thanks

luigi1111 the simple solution to merge powers on site = plowsof

thank you plowsof

my task is to perform the role badly, and slow so someone steps up

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Plowsof will do website merge for free!

<3​21bob321:monero.social> If we gave mbll a go. What would be the kpi she/he/google would need to meet? Being a first timer

I think plow's life would be easier if he had merge powers. Save time on conflicts

i mentioned yesterday, i can take on extra tasks for 'me gold' but it would hurt the project as a whole, extra tasks for plowsof or more contributors

more contributors would be easy, but its currently a negative because of backlog

screw the project and the bag of morons (including myself), take good care of yourself and bring more people in.

overworking man power into oblivion and relying on people because "it's the best we got for now".

prestigious crypto project. all in.

In english?

to be honest, i am thoroughly confused about what we are trying to do now. It's either maintain the website, maintain order in the socials/comms, or both. Have tasks now been split?

Where did they split?

It's always been the combo.

I don't know

Feels like somewhere

I don't read any split here... bin.nora.codes/p/3ynEfU.txt

...having closed the other 2 similar proposals.

head mod, and website lead are (imo) two distinct tasks. They were aggregated initially (not sure why). Now there is talk about one being unpaid.

Or am i misunderstanding?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

They are distinct tasks that fall under the same proposal. Don't know who is claiming one of them will be unpaid. The proposal is clear.

The chitchat in the channel not so much...

> 20:56 <• luigi1111> Does monerobull want to be part of a website workgroup long term even if unfunded?

That's what led me to believe the unpaid bit

> 18:54 <geonic> so per luigi the website maintenance stuff is an unpaid position

And this

Was ErCiccione unpaid?

rotten: fair, the proposal is clear and the chitchat less so

Hmm... hmm... hmmm...

midipoet: especially if you listen to geonic's nonsense. :)

Erc was paid. Just wondering why a workgroup would not be funded then, especially if they did a CCS.

Anyways, maybe i am just confused.

midipoet: repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/c…als/-/merge_requests/474#note_25231

> The project is not accepting applications for a paid maintainer position at this time. A well-functioning website workgroup could select one that could subsequently apply for a CCS if needed, though often open source maintainers are unpaid.

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> just switch to wordpress and hire someone on fiverr

rotten: ah ok. The project has spoken.

Don't for the life of me understand what is and what isn't paid in the rehrar CCS then.

But maybe it's just me

Jesus...

Perhaps a clearer delineation of tasks, objectives, mapped to payment requests would help?

Sounds like you've been repeating that for the past 3 days...

That's exactly what i was gonna say

So i don't know why the f we spent days going in circles, around the fountain of incessant drama, and up CCS sliding doors road, instead of just more clearly outlining the first CCS.

Don't mean to sound pedantic... aren't you the only one asking for 'clearer tasks'?

Don't know what needs rephrasing or more details in here, frankly. bin.nora.codes/p/3ynEfU.txt

Unless we're paying infinite karma and circling back to... it's just his soft skills, figger it out what he does or doesn't, but he's the man for the job.

🙃

Duke is really just mad that that he's not being considered at all

For any of the roles he asked for

Fair enough. Rotten and project have spoken.

_

?

To what do I owe that statement?

It's simply how I look at things, an opinion. If you don't like it, just trash it. At the end of the day I have no dog in this race.

But rotten, you did have a dog in this race 😂

not sure I’d call the proposal clear. it’s misleading if anything. luigi has said that we’re not hiring a website maintainer at this point and we need a functioning workgroup first. furthermore, he has clarified that the maintainer position can be paid (once there is a functioning workgroup), but doesn’t have to be

the lead mod position is definitely unpaid and therefore can’t be part of the “job description”

so the first two points of diego’s proposal, which were actually the most clear ones, are moot

it’s a proposal for soft skills, whatever those are

i think we need to accept that the CCS funds a person, not a distinct project/task, and the person was chosen. If rehrar was to stop working after month 1, nobody could pick up the CCS (as i understand it).

i don't want to argue about it anymore, as it is what it is.

"> i think we need to accept that the CCS funds a person, not a distinct project/task, and the person was chosen. If rehrar was to stop working after month 1, nobody could pick up the CCS (as i understand it)."

maybe the CCS should move to that sort of system.

the ccs is literally "help ofrnxmr take over the world" but with diego's name on it

Sort of like what ofrnxmr stated. They even said the title should be changed, and perhaps they were correct.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I gave the proposal to Luigi for review before posting so I don't know what to tell you guys. :P

i didnt give mine to luigi first

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Vote 1 giego

Bcuz i dont work for luigi

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Diego*

whatever you do say, perhaps don't stick out your tongue while saying it ;-)

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> :PPPPPP

fair enough

<3​21bob321:monero.social> So nioc whats new

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Ez

the tongue is part of the soft skills

CCS isn't supposed to be LCS

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> The softest part, in fact

the brown nose too (:

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Knew something similar was coming

I didn't share with plowsof either. If i wanted feedback from anyone before posting, i got it from community members

“I gave the proposal to Luigi for review before posting” <== well he either didn’t read it close enough or is contradicting himself now

geonic

The proposal is just my proposal but written in a more approachable fashion

Thr deliverables were never intended to be clear

yes. and it has luigi’s upvote, which is all that matters

Luigi was a hypocrite when he closed mine and immediately asked diego to do the same but to out lipstick on the pig so it looked different

the rest is just noise. plebs complaining, etc

I was (am) in favor of my own proposal (obviously). and i think the loose roles are important. I am still in favor of diego's, but the scope seems to thin daily, making me question what the work really is

the work is literally “soft skills”

the only question is who would be the recipient of those soft skills

soft skills do nothing if there responsibility involved

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Was this stated?

it's not. It's a community funded wage for rehrar to do what he used to do, but stopped doing once he stopped getting paid.

That's basically it

Sounded like luigi said he wasnt giving merge powers for site, so whay exactly is even the site position?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Bigger focus on website and moderation, less on the soft skills.

If no merge powers, its just piling on more work to not get done

" 20:16:49 <geonic> luigi isn’t handing out merge powers until a website workgroup is functioning and a leader has emerged from within

20:16:57 <geonic> so I’ve heard

20:17:47 <ofrnxmr> Just caught up, still dont know what i missed

20:17:52 <@luigi1111> that sounds right."

the web maintainer position (the leader of the workgroup) can be paid or unpaid, depending on the workgroup’s decision. The mod position is definitely unpaid

its not a mod position

And pigeons is already effectively god mod

All is paid. It's ~25 XMR a month

what midi said ^

and diego employs pigeons so he is effectively Zeus mod

It might be recurring

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Geonic Re: leading mod team. Wondering where that was stated

But we have no objectives, so nothing to measure against

And no real line of recourse to remove privileges, that i understand

Especially if the CCS just keeps recurring and getting filled

"Leading the moderator teams for Matrix and helping along with IRC"

That's where

diego: luigi said it in private chat when asked for clarification

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Cool

Happy independencame day

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Then so it must be.

Independence

Diego - its stated in your ccs tho..

"Leading the moderator teams for Matrix and helping along with IRC"

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Ofrnxmr I know. That was my understanding and I ran the proposal by Luigi and it was approved.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> So it would seem we need to wait for him to further clarify cuz I no longer have answers.

Its YOUR ccs

Not his

that’s why he should’ve opened it for you like I did for mb

I really don't enjoy hearing what luigi wants

i was abt to say "geo and luigi are the real proposers"

mb and diego are just acting as front men. I dont like it

My proposal wasn't like this. Mine was for community and community alone

Not seeking approval of any handler

😆

And not accepting anyone as a handler.

mediator is a better word

You wrote the proposal, not mb

Mb agreed to your scope, not you agreeing to his

he agreed to diego’s scope. I literally copy-pasted the job description

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I obviously can rephrase to say I'll lead website workgroup and take head mod position etc and not care what Luigi thinks.

but that’s not how CCS works. u don’t open a proposal for an unpaid position

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> But then even if it's merged if Luigi disagrees with my decisions as web guy or "head mod" he could just ignore

just like I can’t open a CCS to be on the core team

diego, toure literally in god mode on monero.social

head mod needs to be removed from the job description

Luigi already cant tell you what to do with matrix

matrix is literally a parasite on top of IRC

ha

If he disagrees with community funding you for a role, then he'd also have to steal/withhold yourvpsy

there is a world where matrix is the best thing since sliced bread

"just like I can’t open a CCS to be on the core team" << i did

When 900xmr goes missing on an unpaid position, is it really unpaid?

why 900?

It's independence day let's go shoot some fireworks

plowsof doesn’t call it independence day

we're sorry about that day

(:

haha

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Ye I do indeed have to go. Family party thing.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Geonic I want to watch your movie

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Send me later if you feel so inclined. You mentioned in your update people can request.

Yeah we'll be around tomorrow. Remember this is in ideas stage. Feedback welcome

luigi1111: Phew phew, burgers and fireworks!

🔫🍔🎆🇺🇸🗽

Geonic 900 refering to the 867 you brought up

diego: of course. can u dm me on irc?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Ye will do when I get home

maybe the 867 will appear. that or a belated donation to the GF

<3​21bob321:monero.social> So many soft skills, not many hard skills