<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> what happens if a wallet only has incoming transactions? is it impacted by this vulnerability?

has anyone ever seen this one before? i haven't, didn't have a chance to change log level. RROR blockchain src/cryptonote_core/tx_verification_utils.cpp:328 rct signature semantics check failed: simple-style batch verification failed

v0.18.4.2

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> What log level? I think ive seen before but dont remember

monerod was on set_log 1 so i didn't get more info

2025-08-27 00:45:30.985 [P2P8] WARNING ringct src/ringct/rctOps.cpp:457 ge_frombytes_vartime failed at 4572025-08-27 00:45:31.006 [P2P8] ERROR blockchain src/cryptonote_core/tx_verification_utils.cpp:328 rct signature semantics check failed: simple-style batch verification failed

<j​effro256:monero.social> No. It would be impacted if you imported key images then refreshed on your first session though I think

baz, I had the same error today on one of my monerod

<j​effro256:monero.social> Or yeah if you just haven't spent yet

<j​effro256:monero.social> Then it wouldnt be impacted

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> imported key images... does that mean using a seed to recover a wallet?

DataHoarder: 18.4.2?

custom built, but from release-18 yeah

<j​effro256:monero.social> Sorry I was assuming that you were talking about view-only wallets

<j​effro256:monero.social> You have to import key images to see outgoing transactions in those types of wallets

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> nope

<j​effro256:monero.social> If its a normal wallet with only incoming transactions , then its not affected

this was seen on one of my public nodes

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> interesting. feather wallet fixed this issue 2 years ago, but you mentioned there was a niche case where the patch fails. what is this niche case?

baz: I have one node with extra logging, lemme see

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> `m_ring_history_saved = true` is all feather wallet does

on dev one with only outgoing connections I saw that but ignored

<j​effro256:monero.social> The niche case is if the feather wallet was made before that patch, and not re-opened since then. It would trigger on next load

just wanted to share in case of a regression or the like

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> oh

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> thx jeffro256 for clearing my doubts! I appreciate your work on carrot btw ;)

<j​effro256:monero.social> Thanks for the kind words :)

baz: it means someone sent invalid data to your node that failed to verify

not related to v0.18.4.2

t​allhatdoug:matrix.org: "`m_ring_history_saved = true` is all feather wallet does" <- I linked two patches. The calls to find_and_save_rings are also patched out.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> bruh the hate against PoS is really just coming from people who have no idea what PoS even means for the protocol

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> monerobull is a government sockpuppet confirmed

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> 👍️

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> bring the true mb back!!!!

<c​t:xmr.mx> PoW >>>>> PoS

<r​edsh4de:matrix.org> PoS derangement syndrome lol

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i dont think so

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> the whole concept of renting hashrate fucked the whole game-theory over

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> sure, renting for long amounts of time gets expensive but we definitely need the finality layer against short term burst attacks

<r​edsh4de:matrix.org> I think it needs to be made clear that a finality layer would just be a layer on top that would safeguard the existing PoW system. Nothing is getting replaced. Its like complaining about adding a electronic lock to a door, just because it is not a padlock.

<r​edsh4de:matrix.org> I think it needs to be made clear that a finality layer would just be a layer on top that would safeguard the existing PoW system. Nothing is getting replaced, so it’s not a question of whether PoW or PoS is better. Its like complaining about adding a electronic lock to a door, just because it is not a padlock.

<h​bs:matrix.org> the borrowing of XMR will fuck the PoS layer

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> hbs are you going to lend out your xmr to someone who will then use your coins to devalue your own coins?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> PoW miners are mercenaries and it turns out that they will turn their back on your network as soon as they can get a little bit of short term profit elsewhere

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> PoS stakers have an actual .... stake in the network

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i cant be the only one who now thinks PoW cant work in todays world right?

> PoW miners are mercenaries and it turns out that they will turn their back on your network as soon as they can get a little bit of short term profit elsewhere

^^ lot of truth in this

Merge mining helps with this

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i used to believe "oh theyd never bite the hand that feeds them / keeps their literal money printer running" but at least some of the botnets jumped ship at the very first chance

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> merge mining has the very same problems

i think we have moved well past the stage where ideology is a stronger incentive than profit. we probably moved past that stage about a decade ago. monero once had a massive ideology incentive, but i am not sure it exists in the same way anymore. we can pretend it does, but i am not so sure

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i think PoW has been way too romanticized

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> some of us here will have threadrippers, sure. but most people have a weak ass CPU that gets out-hashed with a few cents of rented hash

plowsof: why would any "new" coins consider merge mining with monero, when it has a distinct vulnerability that has been (at least somewhat) exposed? the only reason Tari merge mines is cause of the married ideology, predominantly from the 'founders'.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> even if i wanted to help the network more, buying a $20k machine that gets out-hashed with a few dollars of hash is still nowhere near the same level of security as 20k would add in a PoS sytem

<j​winterm:matrix.org> I agree, but I think it's more worser in monero's case when it led to a focus on using CPU only in a romantic effort to let "everyman" mine

<j​winterm:matrix.org> most people obvs dgaf

<j​winterm:matrix.org> at least with specialized hw then miners are really fucking themselves over when they attack the network

<j​winterm:matrix.org> there's zero cost to attack with CPUs

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> p2pool adoption proved this years ago tbh

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i remember the dev going on monerotalk 1 year after launch and just being sad about the lack of adoption

has moving to sha3 been proposed this time around? i know it was mentioned some time ago

<j​winterm:matrix.org> I mean, p2pool exist since forever on bitcoin+clones, and no one really use it there either...

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> asics are even worse

<j​winterm:matrix.org> they don't seem to suffer from the same (more glaring and immediate) issues that monero is facing now

<j​winterm:matrix.org> and I disagree anyway

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> most new btc blocks are mined by OFAC kyc miners

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> located in the USA

<t​esttank:matrix.org> African farmer being able to mine 0.01$ of Monero a week with it’s android >> Having a secure network

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> registered companies that can be pressured by the government

<j​winterm:matrix.org> 40% of hash is in USA so that's...not possible?

<t​esttank:matrix.org> Is there an example of a POW Coin where the hashrate distribution is actually decentralized?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> maybe my numbers on btc are off but its still a massive amount and you cant exactly hide an asic farm from someone motivated to shut you down

<j​winterm:matrix.org> all of them? it's a spectrum, not an absolute, and I think at this point all major ASIC coins have better decentralization than monero, clearly

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i bet most of us here could and would run a staking node and it would add tremendously more security than us all mining on our home machines

<t​esttank:matrix.org> I don’t think they are more decentralized, it’s more that Asics are more difficult to rent & Miners who invested 5k plus for specific hw are unluckily to want to hurt the network

<c​t:xmr.mx> staking is essentially existing banking

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> You are overestimating people's wealth unfortunately

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> by that logic ASIC mining is just PoS again

<c​t:xmr.mx> tradfi

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> bold assumption

<j​winterm:matrix.org> locking up coins is not the same as investing in dedicated specialized hardware and constantly burning electricity imo

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> and how is mining any different CT

<t​esttank:matrix.org> Yeah exactly

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i agree with the "constant" part of PoW being somewhat important

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> so maybe hybrid is indeed the best solution for monero

<c​t:xmr.mx> Pure PoS is off the table for everyone I hope

<j​winterm:matrix.org> I think decred is an example of why the hybrid stuff is just excessive complexity that is ultimately just PoS

<j​winterm:matrix.org> they started with PoW much more prominent, then the PoS side basically minimized PoW to nothing and shifted all rewards to PoS people

<c​t:xmr.mx> now if you combine both pow and pos you better make sure you are not combining the problems

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> the only reason why i consider pure PoS is because a PoS layer would be so expensive to attack anyways that taking on the PoW layer is a rounding error

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> but other than that i have nothing against hybrid

<j​winterm:matrix.org> I think it makes more sense than hybrid system with excessive complexity where PoW is just for theater anyway

<j​winterm:matrix.org> but I'm not a fan

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> yeah, same exact view

<c​t:xmr.mx> cost better balanced to keep things running, rather then sitting on a pile of cash and get paid for fuckall

<c​t:xmr.mx> this is my worry too

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> you are still running a node and validating transactions

<t​esttank:matrix.org> I just would like to see open discussions between the devs without prejudice, to try and understand what would make the network objectively as safe as possible

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> but yeah the constant cost aspect of pow is important too

<c​t:xmr.mx> The same way a bank is still putting up atms

<c​t:xmr.mx> The cost equation has to be shifted as much as possible to upkeep rather then invest

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> NO! PoS is a government psyop. YOU CANNOT LISTEN TO THEIR ARGUMENT

<t​esttank:matrix.org> I think Pow is being over romanticized

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> AHHH TRAITOR TO MONERO, WE NEED GPU MINING... AND MAKE IT PROFITABLE BECAUSE IM NOSTALGIC FOR ETH

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> most retarded suggestion btw

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I think you have been kidnapped and replaced by a glowie

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> mav with the loudest voice

<c​t:xmr.mx> otherwise you'll be taken over by the bankers in no time

<c​t:xmr.mx> Matrix is breaking message order sorry

<e​longated:matrix.org> Hyrid is the way to go

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> probably

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> its also the "easiest to swallow" for the PoW diehards

<e​longated:matrix.org> Keeps our current miners happy

<j​winterm:matrix.org> imo this is the best suggestion if it's GPU to start and then shifts to ASICs

<j​winterm:matrix.org> it's a big enough coin that multiple manufacturers would produce them I think

<c​t:xmr.mx> pure pos is unacceptable

<c​t:xmr.mx> Violates the core principles of xmr

<e​longated:matrix.org> Gpu pow will be so easy to 51%

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> asics are cancer

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> manufacturers when one of their employee burst into the room and propose to make ASICs for a coin that is impossible to sell in big batch in most continents

<j​winterm:matrix.org> so does CPU only mining

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> what

<e​longated:matrix.org> Not really

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> ok guys how about PoS plus PoW with PoW being CPU & ASIC mining :D

<e​longated:matrix.org> Pos+randomx

<c​t:xmr.mx> You think jwinterm ? How so?

<t​esttank:matrix.org> Isn’t one of the principles to make Monero unstoppable? Seems very stoppable to me now

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> guys everyone talking about traditional PoS with a minimal stake to participate but how about no lower bound. Anyone can participate with as much as ONE piconero, but the *disgusting poors* are less likely to be selected to validate a block

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> how does that sound?

<e​longated:matrix.org> There needs to be a minimum

<j​winterm:matrix.org> I don't even know where you are getting "core principles" from, but if you go all the way back to cryptonote paper they say they wanted egalitarian mining where cpu, gpu, and asic are all competitive

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> stop copy pasting the same thing you said yesterday

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> CPU mining goes against moneros ethos because the farrytale of 1 cpu 1 vote goes out the window once you add mercenary botnets and datacenters

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> the joke...

<t​esttank:matrix.org> Lol got me

<j​winterm:matrix.org> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…matrix.org/oqHVHjnORxcatDSrECUJiIpc

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> we dont have the tech for that

<j​winterm:matrix.org> doesn't say that gpus and asics can go pound sand

<c​t:xmr.mx> Core principles based on vibe

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> you need to form consensus somehow and most systems dont scale beyond a few tens of thousand members

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> 1 cpu 1 vote is a myth it has never been part of of monero core principles. The principle that has been referring to was the fact that EVERYONE should be able to participate in ANY ASPECT OF THE NETWORK

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Which is impossible with PoS because of the minimum stake required

<j​winterm:matrix.org> vibe governance

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> If you want to change monero ethos, feel free to do so but assume

<e​longated:matrix.org> Aren’t there too many gpus with a few entities

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> SyntheticMoo, the true and only one: so a hybrid layer would still fit the bill

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> No

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> imo it wouldn't fit

<j​winterm:matrix.org> I have come around to the view that dedicated hardware makes the most sense, and if CPU and GPU can mine and make some coin that's nice

<e​longated:matrix.org> You can still mine, pos is just securing your chain from cubic like actors

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> there are tons and tons of idle gpus in the world

<t​esttank:matrix.org> Do staking pools exist in ETH?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> yeah

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> rocketpool

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> ANY ASPECT OF THE NETWORK

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> lets you stake with i believe 8 ETH instead of 32

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> poors can't participate in the PoS layer in a TFL approach

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> but that only works because of smart contracts

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> im explicitly saying poors because its very funny and shitposting tier, not because i see people with no wealth as bad.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> we'd have to specifically make it a blockchain feature for us

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> wish everyone to have some fortune

<e​longated:matrix.org> With current price you are not going to get those dedicated hardware miners, that boat sailed a few yrs ago when we had chance to have minimum ram requirements to avoid botnets

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> they can after mining enough on their android

<j​winterm:matrix.org> > EVERYONE should be able to participate in ANY ASPECT OF THE NETWORK

<j​winterm:matrix.org> this sounds overly romantic and completely impractical (and has never been true anyway)

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> bad faith argument

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> as long as you have some sort of mining the chain is still permissionless

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> you know its impossible

<j​winterm:matrix.org> grin.mw has ASICs and is frequently most profitable GPU coin to mine on whattomine.com

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> and i honestly dont care that someone with $5 in monero cant validate it

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Thanks be clear about it

<j​winterm:matrix.org> not unthinkable imo

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> that's all im asking for

<c​t:xmr.mx> So like voting in democracies?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> NO POLITICS OR I'LL FIND YOU AND STUFF YOU INTO MY MOUTH

<e​longated:matrix.org> Mined by a few Chinese asic manufacturers

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> this isnt some willy nilly game

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> this is a 5 billion dollar payment network

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> of course you need infrastructure to secure it

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> of course that isnt free

<j​winterm:matrix.org> this is complete speculation with no evidence and I disagree

<j​winterm:matrix.org> and given that transactions on monero are largely indistinguishable I think zcash (which is one chinese pool) is in a better position than monero (if it had indistinguisable txs, which it doesn't)

<c​t:xmr.mx> can we make voting right proportional to the wealth pls? I'm sure this would fix everything

<e​longated:matrix.org> How many of those ASICS were sold and what was the manufacturing capacity?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> thats literally the joke i made earlier

<j​winterm:matrix.org> rather have one pool that will fuck itself over with 51% when it can't really censor anyway

<j​winterm:matrix.org> they've been reselling on secondary markets for years

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> but it's not rational

<j​winterm:matrix.org> I don't think ipollo shares their financials

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> you need a lower stake

midipoet its vulnerability against an economic attack and selfish mining - papers / counter measures on the matter have existed since 2013 and earlier, but new coins piggy backing off of randomX is also a tricky one and maybe unrelated to the problem at hand - a new coin launching with randomX has its own unique problems, townforge added Proof Of

Settlement to in part reduce the risks of 51% attacks. Dns checkpointing will be effective against selfish miners according to the people who have been stopping them with various means

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> you need a lower bound

<e​longated:matrix.org> So same machines are changing hands and how has the hashrate progressed over the years ?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> as if wealth doesnt heavily influence politics already

<j​winterm:matrix.org> moves with price, same as every coin ever

I ask myself if a top monero pool can generate enough monero to participate in the finality layer? Or if any large amount if monreo seized can be used to participate? Think 5 eyes seizing 5 billions in internet money

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> plowsof can we have a new monero-consensus channel

Maybe i need a book in this TFL to understand it .ore

<e​longated:matrix.org> Which asic pow are you going to use for monero ?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> btw dns checkpoints are literally just entrusting the network with core

<j​winterm:matrix.org> good q

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> who are probably 2 +60yo dudes

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I love centralization

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> it's a good thing

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> as long as i trust people in charge

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> and people in charge i trust them

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> 👍️

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> PoS is literally more decentralized than PoW with DNS checkpoints

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> red herring

there is already a level of trust in the reference wallet / core

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> DNS checkpoints is a temporary measure until hardening are done. You are using to confirm your original point which was that PoS is more decentralized than PoW, not PoW with DNS checkpoints

<t​esttank:matrix.org> Also is POW really open to anyone if to mine 5$ of XMR i need to spend 8$ in electricity?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> so that isn't a valid argument in the discussion at hand

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> or at least the discussion that was originally brought into place

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> PoW is vulnerable against short term attacks with rented hash

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> the pos finality layer is the logical solution

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> plowsof, not until cuprate takes over the United Contributors of Monero

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> or something idk

<j​winterm:matrix.org> just switch to PoS then and avoid the extra complexity and attack surface would be a more logical solution

<j​winterm:matrix.org> but still not "the logical solution" imo

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i mean.... yeah? but then you make the chain permissioned which goes against moneros ethos and that compromise seems fair imo

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> so while hybrid is not the most logical option, its the most realistic to actually make monero more secure

<e​longated:matrix.org> Only pos is not digestive

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> i know im being the annoying asshole but none of the "solution" so far are "logical", they are "rational". not the same

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> that too

<e​longated:matrix.org> Logic is to secure chain, hybrid brings that to the table

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Can your formally prove it ?

<e​longated:matrix.org> With gpu asics pow current miners will be out and replaced by unknown actors

<e​longated:matrix.org> Prove that current pow is not secure against 51% attack ?

formally prove that hybrid is the a an efficient measure to secure the chain

if not that is a rational solution

not a logical one

<e​longated:matrix.org> Wait for the book 😅

you have reasons to push for it, not proofs

is it just me or monero.social was dying for a sec

<e​longated:matrix.org> I don’t see any other alternative

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> same

<j​winterm:matrix.org> there's infinite alternatives...

<j​winterm:matrix.org> you are just rejecting them

<e​longated:matrix.org> Like gpu and asic ?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> most are not better than the status quo so they get rejected by default

<j​winterm:matrix.org> that would be one

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> we want to improve monero, not debate worse solutions

<j​winterm:matrix.org> ASIC seems clearly better than status quo imo

<e​longated:matrix.org> Dua triple pow ?

<j​winterm:matrix.org> no one 51% attacking dogecoin

<e​longated:matrix.org> Dual triple pow ?

<j​winterm:matrix.org> and txs are actually censorable there

<j​winterm:matrix.org> monero doesn't even suffer from that issue

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> we will see how quibcs go at doge will go

<e​longated:matrix.org> Doge is merge mined for a decade ?

<j​winterm:matrix.org> no one 51% attacking btc or ltc either

<r​ucknium:monero.social> jwinterm: Surely you know about the empty block attack against BSV.

<e​longated:matrix.org> It’s won’t happen lol

<j​winterm:matrix.org> and doge is more valuable than ltc for 5 years+

<j​winterm:matrix.org> so it's not really merge mining anymore

14:22:25 <SyntheticBird> is it just me or monero.social was dying for a sec

seems it did

<j​winterm:matrix.org> more like vice versa

<j​winterm:matrix.org> BCH and BSV are stupid

<j​winterm:matrix.org> you need to merge mine if you are not the dominant coin on your pow

<j​winterm:matrix.org> obvs

<e​longated:matrix.org> Those asic manufacturers see xmr as stupid

<r​ucknium:monero.social> If you look at the whole universe of PoW coins, ASIC-minable coins have the same problems as Monero is having.

<j​winterm:matrix.org> even doges can figure this out

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> DataHoarder ack

<j​winterm:matrix.org> they objectively do not

<e​longated:matrix.org> It’s mergemined, you proposing xmr merge mined with ltc ?

<j​winterm:matrix.org> that is a better suggestion than any I've seen here

<h​bs:matrix.org> I don't own any coins since I've joined the Soggy Monero Yacht Club

<r​ucknium:monero.social> ASIC- and GPU_mineable coins have been 51% attacked, with double-spending. People have claimed that ASICS help coins appreciate against fiat, but Zcash is ASIC-mineable and has depreciated against fiat and has worse pool distribution than Monero. There are many counterexamples to the claims that ASICS are better. It's availability bias.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> The empirical evidence is not convincing to me.

<e​longated:matrix.org> Xmr did appreciate when bitmain was mining

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> that was with cpus

<j​winterm:matrix.org> Which dominant ASIC coin was 51% attacked?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> and not because of the mining

<e​longated:matrix.org> With CN

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> ah ok bcs they were also mining with the x5 aka box-o-cpus

<e​longated:matrix.org> Grin

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> CPUs were supposed to be our asics 😭

<e​longated:matrix.org> They are still competing with botnets

<r​ucknium:monero.social> ETH Classic suffered a rented hashpower 51% attack multiple times. That's GPU, but still. How is Monero going to be dominant in an ASIC-mineable coin when its coin emission is low now?

<e​longated:matrix.org> False they were just to stop asics

<t​esttank:matrix.org> Is a POS coin ever been sucessufully 51% attacked?

<c​t:xmr.mx> I'm not sure if its technically possible, but having a foss USB device you need to plugin while mining would "fix" the ranted hash issue

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> you have different attacks on PoS

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> like stalling consensus

<j​winterm:matrix.org> Fair point, maybe should merge mine with doge

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> ceetee.mx: thats one of the proposed fixes

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> probably gameable some way though

<e​longated:matrix.org> Doge is merge mined with ltc 😅

<h​bs:matrix.org> Gnosis Chain has a 1 GNO lower bound for being a validator, they have 10s of thousands of them, very decentralized

<j​winterm:matrix.org> Could just switch back to cryptonight vWhatever

<j​winterm:matrix.org> Already got ASICs

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Zcash has 75% domination by a single pool ...

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> id rather have 5s of thousands of validators if it means keeping privacy

<e​longated:matrix.org> Need Time Machine

<j​winterm:matrix.org> I think this is semantics and since doge is more valuable (higher diff) for years now the opposite has been true since 2021 or so

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Zcash can be at any point

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Qubic says they will attack Dogecoin next. I doubt they can, but maybe they have some trick up their sleeve.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> This Matrix server is being 51% attacked ;)

<e​longated:matrix.org> Like a few ASIC farms , they can’t 51% I can bet

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Doge miners are just ltc miners who need a coin to dump. attacking doge just requires $, not asics

<j​winterm:matrix.org> Cfb is a scammer looking for attention and the only place he's had (repeated) success is xmr

<j​winterm:matrix.org> His words are worthless

<j​winterm:matrix.org> Let's stick with reality

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> he literally 51% attacked monero multiple times

<c​t:xmr.mx> If the device can be emulated in software, it can be gamed. Having 2fa keys would be a centralized solution, but I can't think of any way to make that decentralized.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> The goal isnt to manually mine doge, its to pay a % more in qubic to run a doge pool

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> successfully

<e​longated:matrix.org> He didn’t

<t​esttank:matrix.org> Yes he did

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> qubic literally could have broadcasted 2 16 block reorgs

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Lol, what?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> they only didnt because, idk, they didnt want to get sued by gate

<e​longated:matrix.org> Yes, they could have attacked; they avoided

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> have yall been sleeping the past 2 days

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I wouldn't have thought that monerobull would one day spread disinformation

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i dont sleep well with our chain at the mercy of someone insane enough to attack specifically monero

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> he did 2 9 block reorg

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> doesn't mean he have 51% of the hashrate

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> kek

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> they could have done more

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> they had the hash

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> and even if he did 16 block reorg, its not a 51% attack 💀

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> you literally have no proof that they had

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> and you believe it

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> they mined 19 blocks back to back

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> no they didnt

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> so rucks tool is lyign?

<e​longated:matrix.org> 🤔 they could double spend

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> bro is just spewing nonsense at this point

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> ofrn are you ragebaiting

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…matrix.org/KWLXAonYEVHEnpinDBERVwuN

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> elongated they can double spend with a 1 block reorg, because they arent including and normal txs

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> You clearly misunderstood the information

<e​longated:matrix.org> You can’t as those valid txs go back to mempool

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> That image shows that they mined 4 blocks in a row

<e​longated:matrix.org> >10 they can spend again

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> No, their mempool doesnt have the txs

<e​longated:matrix.org> Hmm 🤔

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Their mempool has nothing

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> they can broadcast confirmed txs to honest hash chain, then replace with a double spend on their own chain

<e​longated:matrix.org> They are mining only empty blocks ?

<t​esttank:matrix.org> Why are you not considering the blocks they selfish mined?

<c​t:xmr.mx> over invested

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> it doesnt require n*1002937 blocks and 86.67% hashrate. It requires selfish mining

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> And selfish mining is not a 51% attack

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i sold 75% of my monero this year

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> bunch of it yesterday

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> congrats

<t​esttank:matrix.org> His name is monerobull what do you expect

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> nice

<e​longated:matrix.org> Seems like you are using butcoin to transact

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> emotionally, yes. monero is the last real crypto currency there is

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> They are mining their own txs, not completely empty anymlre

<t​esttank:matrix.org> Nevermind username doesn’t checkout

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i dont want to see it die, oh no

<e​longated:matrix.org> You didn’t sell this cycle top?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i sold specifically because of the risk of people trying to stick to PoW and it killing the chain

<t​esttank:matrix.org> How i’m supposed to know what’s the top lol

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Good for you, champ

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> always said it, im not bullish monero, im bullish p2p digital cash

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> You probably also sold because monero was "successfully 51% attacked"

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> if monero cant deliver that, i have to move on

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> ofrn if one guy has the power to rewrite what was accepted as "final" for 10 years and just chose not to, then yes, that is a successful attack

<c​t:xmr.mx> I'm not selling for cheap because the qubit guy is noisy

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> A successful 51% attack? False

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> it is essentially what happened

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> he just didnt execute on it

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> he had the power to do it and thats what matters

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> It is not essentially what happened

<e​longated:matrix.org> They can’t even rewrite something a few hours ago 😅

<c​t:xmr.mx> *Facebook marketplace voice* "I know what I have"

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> You can't redefine things based on your emotional state

<j​winterm:matrix.org> if xmr went with btc rule of one hour of proof of work for "confirmation", he would need to do 30 block reorgs

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> you guys are aware that the feds could force someone like amazon to just wipe our entire chains history right? they have the compute to do it.

<j​winterm:matrix.org> not sure how many still use six block rule of thumb tho

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Zcash has 75% single pool dominance. If i was spreading irrational fud, id say they were 51% attacked. They were nnit. BUT they CAN be at any moment, indefinitely

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> ofrn qubic is outwardly hostile towards monero, its not like some normal mining pool

<e​longated:matrix.org> Anyways, dns finality is a good patch; hybrid will be a good decentralised way to do it

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i agree with elongated

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Honestly pretty much ready, just have tk soet out the bans

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> And is essentially the same thing as other TFLs like POS or rolling checkpoints / max reorg depth

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> each has its own drawback

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> didnt the checkpoints splinter the network multiple times

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Dns = compromised servers can serve bad checkpoints, causing a fail ij finakity (dns rewuires majority of prescribed dnssec to be agree)

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> pos = exchangrs, governments, or whales can do the same

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Rolling = decentralized, different nodes can disagree, but honestly i dont think likely unless youre starting a node after being offline kr genesis

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> No. Theyve never been used

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> exchanges and governments currently hold barely any monero

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> testnet

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Testing on testnet splintered the network because of mistakes made by rucknium and myself

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> example: i forgot to mine on on the checkpointed network

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> example 2: the node used to crrate checkpoints didnt have checkooints enforced, so it got forked off

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i dont know man

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> getmonreo.org was serving malware and the CCS wallet got drained

<t​esttank:matrix.org> Will it be included in the next release or is it still to be decided?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> putting the network on a handful of dns servers seems risky

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> the setup right now is to checkpoint 2 blocks deep

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> does that mean we can get rid of the 10 block lock?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> The dns servers can be "decentralized"

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> technically it should, right?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> because all DNS checkpoints do is finalize like a PoS system, just fully centralized

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Using dns checkpoints indefinitely? yes. But this is temporary

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> jesus when i write it out like this the DNS checkpoints seem like a terrible idea

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> sure, it protects us from qubic but holy moly centralization

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> wed be more centralized than fucking solana while they are active

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Dns checkpoints are just a blockheight and blockhash

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> heck, binance chain probably has more decentralization

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Your node compares what you have locally

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> This _can_ be done w/o a centralnserver

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Your own node would simply do the checkpointing locally

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> if they can be used to rewrite the height or stall progress than it doesnt really matter

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> rejecting reorgs greater than 2 blocks deep

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> why specifically 2?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> can be whatever you want, but we never see "organic" reorgs greater than 2 blocks

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> More than that is typically selfish mining

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> ok

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Could be set to 9 blocks, but were using 2

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i knew we had up to 3 or 4 in the past, didnt know if malicious or not

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> you can accidentally selfish mine (lose connectivitity for a few mins)

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> but yeah.. i dont understand the oushback against locak checkpointing

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> because once youre on the wrong chain its joever

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> a pos finality layer rewuires what, 100 people to agree on what js essentially a dns checkpoint (without the dns)

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> If they dont agree, finality fails and youre in the same situation as w/o a finality layer

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> kayabas proposed consensus completes in seconds

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> checkpointing the tip would reject even honest reorgs, which can be done locally too. The agreement with insert_entity_here is the difference

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> yeah and id rather have the entity be even just a 100 stakers than whoever is still breathing at core

<a​remor:matrix.org> Got 51% of hash how?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> ideally we get many thousands of stakers

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> their pool controls 20-30% and they rented more while the network was on its natural hash low tied

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> their pool controls 20-30% and they rented more while the network was on its natural hash low tiede

<h​bs:matrix.org> Nobody has any idea what govt may hold in terms of XMR

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> we do however have a pretty good idea of how much compute google, amazon and microsoft have

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> and it is VASTLY more than any of us plebs

<a​remor:matrix.org> Upon a reorg, dropped txs go back into the mempool?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> only up to 9 or 10 blocks though

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> more than that and the tx itself becomes invalid

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> If the reorg is with empty blocks, yea

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Dns checkpoints dont have to be core

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Tfl isnt intended for thousands of stakers aiui

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> would a tx stay valid if there is a 20 block reorg where only the first 5 blocks have transactions?

<b​oog900:monero.social> Fwiw invalid txs are still added to the pool in a reorg

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> North korea or botnet operators might have 40%. Its not like the emission was .. well distributed

<b​oog900:monero.social> although unless they become valid again they will never be mined

<b​oog900:monero.social> If they reference any txs in the 20 blocks (including the miner txs) then no they wont be valid.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Aiui (could be wrong) but an invalid tx may become valid again if the referenced decoys are mined & unlocked again

<b​oog900:monero.social> they have to be mined at the exact same index too

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> aka not happening

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> i see, so not likely

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> The problem is that we arbitraily set a 10 block lock

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> and ringct ct depends on _assuming_ 10 blocks to be final

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> With absolutely no method to actually finalize unlocked coins

<b​oog900:monero.social> if we referenced outputs another way instead of by index it would be more likely, especially if we separated miner txs out of normal txs decoy sets

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> it really should have been 30 or 40 huh

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> BUT BUT MY 2 HOURS LOCK BETWEEN COFFEE SIR

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> thats why we have zero conf and no RBF

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> zero conf isn't a solution and i'll take that as a harassment. I'll report it on twitter and you'll get savagely decapitated for me to then dance on your corpse

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> ok sorry i'm shitposting again

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> i love zero conf

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> zero conf isnt a solution but centralized dns checkpoints are 😭

<b​oog900:monero.social> just set block time to 30s and have a 40 block lock

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Nobody said dns was a solution

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> what about that one guy on a secluded island having a 300B/s bandwith with 10s latency

<b​oog900:monero.social> could even go with 30 block lock then we would decrease the lock time :)

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> i heard coconuts blocks radiowave

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> oh and keep the mining rewards at 0.6 because inflation is what will solve this

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Zero conf isnt a solution either, since mempool txs arent guarantee to ever be mined

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> you're joking, right? 😂

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> shut up

monero.social is deadd

I see it slowly drip feeding me messages

DataHoarder its over

i see nothing

one every couple of seconds

I'm an appservice so I see a bit more

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> yeah

I stopped it in case it helps, but I don't seem to affect load

I was getting 10-20 per second before

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> don't bring counter arguments

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> OH COME ON BRO 1 MINUTE TO SEND A MESSAGE

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> some people are making the argument as if touching the economics isnt the ONE thing you cant do

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> the main reason inflation would be "good" is just because the early distribution was unfortunately very fast

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> But i dont think any other reason

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Inflation doesnt help with security budget

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> It devalues security budget

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> QE monero

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Monero federal reserve committee decides to raise inflation to 12%

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> boog900 i still dont understand how to deal with orphans here

<c​t:xmr.mx> typo

<c​t:xmr.mx> was supposed to say 21% right?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> why dont we do negative rates

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> pay to mine

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> ah no we already do that

<b​oog900:monero.social> wdym?

<b​oog900:monero.social> just like how we currently do?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> atupid twitter logged me out now claims my 2fa is wrong

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> btw thanks for the discussion guys, this was fun

j-berman full-time development (4 months) has moved to funding! ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/j-berman-4months-full-time-11.html

jeffro256 full-time development 2025Q3 has moved to funding! ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/jeffro256-full-time-2025Q3.html

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> I dislike pos (proof of shit) but I guess an argument for it is that since centralized exchanges don't have much xmr due to fractional reserves, they're not a threat in monero's case so the distribution will be fairer

hinto-janai full-time work (3 months) has moved to funding! ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/hinto-5.html

Matrix is down?

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> fractional reserves + delistings ;)

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> you're underestimating the number of validators

definitely slow, but online

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> Zcash is switching to PoS due to pool centralization

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Didnt have to insult me in public like that

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Zcash has been planning pos switch(rug da asics) for years

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Zcash foundation first to own the asics, and 20% dev fee

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> Zcash will move to hybrid PoW + Pos, so that will play out before us

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I wonder who the largest stakers will be 🤣

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> s/before us/before our eyes?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Only thing xmr will be missing in the "how to become zcash 101" playbook, will be optional privacy

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> When will we add that?

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> electric-coin-company.github.io/tfl…troduction/motivating-finality.html

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> I think selling would be a huge mistake, particularly with fcmp++, carrot, and serai making steady progress. the qubic threat has already been broadcasted everywhere and the price of monero is doing fine. monero would have dumped more significantly if the qubic threat was deemed as something that will end monero. now seems like a good time to hold on and see how things play out

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Idk why ppl mention serai as if its a monero protocok

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Its its own blockchain

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> serai deserves the hype

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Its like saying "tari is coming"

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> CEX will obtain large stake, delist -> to withdraw your xmr you have to convert to other coin first sorry we need our stake :P

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> will be easier to use than bsx ;)

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Allegedly

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> cake wallet and eigenwallet will support serai frontends on launch

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> easier for who? Lol. For validators? Bsx doesnt have those

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> so it will definitely be easier to use

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> In 2029?

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> users

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Do you think bsx wont also have wallet support by then?

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> idk what is going on with bsx

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> bsx is working on protocol lvl changes to allow for wallet suppoet

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> And has a deal with some ltc wallet to do the first intefration

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Should take abt 6 months from N date

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> wdym?

<c​rz:matrix.org> We got the basic glue <> done

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> bsx requiring users to host nodes is the biggest issue

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> for each blockchain they want to swap on

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Serai requires validators broski

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> until that ux is fixed (if it can), bsx will remain niche

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> To be a taker, serai does not

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> you don't need to become a validator to swap

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Bsx should be the same. Taker version that doesnt require nodes

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Just like eigenwallet/unstoppable

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Takers dont require nodes

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> when?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Soon enough, and should come with windows support

<c​t:xmr.mx> bruh no need to convince me 😭 unless somebody comes along with a better money its ride or die

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> let me know when it's out

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Of course. Will be big announcement when we get that stuff done

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> can you get @monero to tweet about it?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> No

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> or rt

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> @monero tweets whatever it wants

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> lmao

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> cant even get it to tweet about spy nodes or banlists

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> (letting the world know my thoughts)

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> I'm surprised monerobull sold. ig xenu replaced the previous monerochan lover!

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> they tweeted about cake wallet...?

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> makes no sense lol

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> they tweet cake wallet related stuff every 3 days

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> bruh

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> "Privacy matters pass it alone" - our friends at cakewallet

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> along* they love tweeting these quotes

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> "cake had a new release!" Tweet Literwlly like 2 days ago

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> does basicswap have an x account>

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> yea

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> does basicswap have an x account?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> "we're excited to announcethat cake have a new release"

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> need to follow for announcements

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> @basicswapdex

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> validators & pools scales a whole lot better than p2p

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> validators & pools scales a whole lot better than one-off direct p2p trades

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> honestly I did try using bsx before as the landing page itself was promising enough. too hard for me and I run my own pool :(

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Try again

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Use basicswap-bash

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> my distro don't have bash installed

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> what do i do

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> I don't think that existed the last time I tried

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> pacman bash

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> how do you know im using arch

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Maybe not

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> shilling PoS and now knowing my system

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> very sus monerobull

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> It works with zsh too

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> (Or should)

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Maybe not

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Haha

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> pos vomit

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> It def works with arch tho

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Also, there is a user-supplied flatpak and also a nixos thing

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> But ive not tested either of those

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i use arch btw

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> thank god for LLMs

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> docker compose up

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> without them id still be on windows

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> after experimenting with deb, appinage etc, i honestly feel the only thing better than bash would be a visual installer

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Citra like linux setup

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> CONSIDERING THE WHOLE reorg thing happening , is it good to mine solo or to mine to p2p? I mean to support xmr

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i had a weird issue where my drive goes into read-only and it fucks everything, chatgpt helped me figure out its because of a corrupt counterstrike map. deleting and reinstalling it fixed the issue

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> CONSIDERING THE WHOLE reorg thing happening , is it good to mine solo or to mine to p2p? I mean to support xmr(not the pool)

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Kentuxy: unless you can find blocks solo, mine to p2pool

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> p2p for propagation times

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Solo, your'e more likely to get orphaned

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> Sure thing I'll go p2p

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> If you dont find blocks, youre not actually helping

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> P2pool pays participation rewards, but until you find a block, youve done nothing to protect the network

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> ive found my own block on p2pool before :D

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> you can support xmr by not worrying

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> you can support xmr by using supportxmr

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> dns checkpoints soon. I think mining is pretty useless if you have < 1 MH/s

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> EVERY H PER SEC COUNT

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> ok

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Ive found like 10 blocks with 6-15kh

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> ill go ask my russian friends to mine

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> :3

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> solo mining?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> i presume

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> solo for like 7 of them

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> impossible

<t​esttank:matrix.org> 100% agree, right now there is no way to swap significant amount of value to Monero trustlessly

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> lmao

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> following you make much more sense to this message

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> MY POOL HAS OVER 400 KH/s AND WE'VE ONLY FOUND 2 BLOCKS

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> in like 2 weeks*

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> 400kh is 1 $20k rig

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> My "10" blocks span years

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> ofrnxmr??? have you been STEALING blocks from people?? you're very naughty!

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> how long have you been mining? 2 years?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Longer than that

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> ive mined a year with ~10kh

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I love STEALING the first place in a COMPETITION

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> before i found my block

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> serai is not entirely monero like ofrn said so I personally think it will become as big if not bigger than thorchain

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> 10khs is nothing

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> monerobull since we're disagreeing pretty often lately and we both have good PCs i propose that we fusion into a hivemind and unify our effort

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> lol

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> the exposure to monero from that alone will be amazing! thorchain's exposure to bch was incredible...

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Serai is a hoax

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> fuck wrong account

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> im not installing your rootkit

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> do not be afraid

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> You'll keep your individuality within the hive mind

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> are you monerobull?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> i am

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> isnt that an oxymoron

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> knew it

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> if you really wanna be a nerd about there are all sorts of hive mind worldbuilding

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> and some hivemind delegate some individuality to some drones

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i am burnt out on chatting for today, see you tomorrow

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> good rest

<t​allhatdoug:matrix.org> goodbye monerobull

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> you meant goodbye me?

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> I'm solo MINing with 1.2 kh for over 8 days now

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> bro

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> for solo u need atleast 250khs

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> So should I go for p2p nano?

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> Or mini?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Mini

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> nano

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Nano doesnt find blocks often, so youll go a good while w/o a payout

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> not nano?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Nano is closer to solomining

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> ok

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> seems like 1.2 kH would likely see blocks in mini where they don't have any shares though

<j​ack_ma_blabla:matrix.org> cubic is fucking up tx confirmations

<j​ack_ma_blabla:matrix.org> 0 double spends, 0 not relayed, 0 failing, 83 older than 10 minutes (oldest 21 minutes ago)

17:03:45 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Nano is closer to solomining

you get many shares but no blocks yeah

use the observer calculators

on mini you'd find one share on average every 1d 11h at current difficulty

p2pool mini finds currently one block every ~10h on average

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> block every 5 days on average but you'll get a payout every block

ofc, luck can and will vary short term

yeah... not really

on nano you may find a share every 10h 30m

PPLNS window is ~6h of blocks (it's measured in share heights, not time)

<h​emalurgist:matrix.org> Someone please pm me and help me get a node set up. I installed everything and walked away then my short cut on the desktop quit working.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> My dms are open

last mini block paid out 772 people at once mini.p2pool.observer/share/4e8fbfc4…585c3af7e5fdc07425268c001ee2a81b6a3

nano paid out 187 people at once :) nano.p2pool.observer/share/0b9e8e58…e4efe9e8d477c081a71909b5a736ca7c74a

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> DataHoarder that's cool

best part it's all in the open and can and is proved in realtime :)

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> It's getting difficult to find a block because of qubic?

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> I guess qubic is basically manipulating and Mining blocks and causing reorgs and stuff.

high difficulty in general, most of the time except specific intervals on their marathons they are doing straight mining

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> So I got 1.2 Kh what do u prefer I mine on?

you'll find the right balance on mini

shares every couple of days, and higher chance of payout

your earnings long term would be the same no matter the method, given average luck

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> Approx how much hr have u got?

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> Thanks I'll try that for the rest i guess

I run observer sites themselves, hashrate, way more spotty lately due to energy prices, but the servers mine some when costs are low when idling.

Just caught up, thankfully Cat is with me

Neither one of us has sold any monero since the cubists arrived

We are still bullish regarding montero

Since I turned my miners on during the warm off season Cat has still been enjoying the heat and requests that whatever else is done that pow remain

Such self interest lol

I only care that the best solution is implemented and I believe that this will happen

Thx everyone <3

18:46:12 <nioc> I only care that the best solution is implemented and I believe that this will happen

Monero can be slow to reach consensus due to the distributed nature of it, but once it does things go smooth

Forcing around something before a consensus is reached just makes for problems later on

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> So now consensus is made by major pools right

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> And DataHoarder after a while of thinking I thought maybe I don't require so immediate amount to appear in my wallet Mining in mini, is thought eventhough the block time is huge for nano I thought .maybe it could use an extra 1 kh what do u say

either mini or nano can get the extra hashrate

start with mini to see *something*

nano could get quite bad if it gets unlucky

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> Then why does it still have people in it

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> Why nano ?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Because mini can get to be "too big"

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Right now, mini is not too big

nano could get too big

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> Oo

someone just put more hashrate in these pools than main

so difficulty increased

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Somone just did? Or could

there's nothing stopping anyone, they can just mine on any p2pool they want

it's a network and they can come in or out

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Yea ofc

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I just didnt check and wasnt sure whethet you were speaking about present or potential

this is what was mentioned when I saw nano (or multiple) being made, same as I said when mini was made

splitting hashrate just allows an attacker to effectively 51% the smaller pools easier

stick to the one with the highest hashrate as you can allow

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> Yes

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> Ok

51% on p2pool means something different, anyhow

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> Yeah lo

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> So DataHoarder u run observer sites for p2pool or someother?

I made them, develop them, run them

git.gammaspectra.live/P2Pool/consensus git.gammaspectra.live/P2Pool/observer

also p2pool in golang :)

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> Great

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> So how do these work, is am not into these, so can u explain em ?

they just look at the p2pool network, then I archive the data

site queries this data and shows it

p2pool doesn't save the entire history, just recent one for each pool. this archives all public information

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> So how long should I be Mining to see my data ? Brother

once you find a share and publish it onto the p2pool network

on average for mini with your hashrate, 1d 11h but it could be before, or later

99% chance within 7 days

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> So the shares showing up in my xmrig aren't the ones?

no, those are local. look at p2pool

that's just so you can see your local hashrate reported

if you have the command line for it anywhere (how are you running it?) you should be able to type: status

then press enter

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> I have it running in a cli Interface

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> Yeah I got something I typed stats

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> Yeah I got something I typed status

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> In shares it said 0 blocks. 0+ uncles and 0 orphans

yeah. those shares would be seen by observer

but you see a "hashrate" listed right/

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> Yep

then it's all good

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> It's saying 24 hr est is 750

a share effectively is a "mini monero block", but could be one full monero block if lucky (and that pays out everyone in p2pool!)

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> 15m est is 70 H 😳

what does xmrig say

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> 1131

<k​entuxy:matrix.org> It's always 200 less from xmrig

<l​m:matrix.baermail.fr> I like the nano pool. Having few payouts in a few month makes less big consolidation, so less fee. Actually long term getting paid more frequently will make you less money than bigger payout less frequently (more payouts, more inputs, more size, more fee).

<l​m:matrix.baermail.fr> I like the nano pool. Having a few payouts in a month makes less big consolidation, so less fee. Actually long term getting paid more frequently will make you less money than bigger payout less frequently (more payouts, more inputs, more size, more fee).

<l​m:matrix.baermail.fr> Unless you plan to use your gains for micro transactions who happened to have exactly the same amount of the payouts, in which case you wouldn't have a change output so less fee.

<h​emalurgist:matrix.org> Can someone explain why there are not “paper wallets” or hard wallets like Ballet coins for Monero? One website looks like they sell them but they are always sold out.

<m​yceliation:matrix.org> Pretty sure there are hardware wallets for XMR, and a paper wallet is just a private key/seed with writing on it.

<m​yceliation:matrix.org> The world is yar oyster ;)

I didn't know there is a list of coins with hybrid PoW+PoS already

Zano google.com/amp/s/blog.zano.org/the-…e-of-a-hybrid-pow-pos-algorithm/amp

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Decred

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Dash

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Firo

Dont they start doing things with dev funds / rewards and % here and there for things? Nit just 'stor orgs'

Not just stop reorgs*

Can't let a large stake go to waste 🍴

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Yeah, they vote using stake too

<s​gp_:monero.social> Dash context x.com/kayabaNerve/status/1955276887191666905

<s​gp_:monero.social> I'm not saying all hybrid assets picked the correct solution, but they learned (often the hard way) that small assets really struggle with pure PoW. That was definitely a lesson learned from Firo