<321bob321> i still have that post archived lol

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: 6.5k

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> You need to wrap em or present em nicely

<ct:xmr.mx> how many hours till the meeting? Want to make sure nobody gets confused by the time zones

<ct:xmr.mx> (Including me)

3hrs and 44mi3

3 hrs and 43 min

aka 1600 UTC

1600 is from the meta

<comradeblin:matrix.org> Hey! I have to go out around the time of the meeting. Please someone ping me at the vote. Thanks 🙏

<ofrnxmr> Should be around 1630

<ofrnxmr> Hopefully

<ofrnxmr> PSA in about 1hr there's a community meeting at #monero-community to discuss many things Monerokon, some info at monero-project/meta #1417

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> Is it there any requirement to vote?

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> Like, have a verified social media or something like that?

<ofrnxmr> @slowbeardigger:matrix.org: We kno u

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> 👀

<ofrnxmr> If the vote is raided by never-before-seen day-old handles, we may verify, deweight, or exclude

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> Excellent, thanks for letting me know!

<ofrnxmr> Iirc, kon workgroup already has a more strict written policy

<ammortel> is this the monero community chat ? I can't see the name

<siren:kernal.eu> yes it is

<pw:xmr.mx> Monero community workgroup

<pw:xmr.mx> #monero:monero.social is the main Monero topic channel

<pw:xmr.mx> #monero-offtopic:monero.social is off topic

<jpk68:matrix.org> Government ID should be required for the vote /s

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> Yes

<hashido:matrix.org> Along with your primary wallet seed

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> And a copy of all your chats, unencrypted

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @jpk68:matrix.org: It is

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> /s

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/MCtfVZusDwbIqlLMmyArMQuz.png (Here’s my id, don’t ask for it later )

<stnby:kernal.eu> @jpk68:matrix.org: Liberland ID works?

<stnby:kernal.eu> Tbh showing a past MK ticket should be more than enough. Otherwise people are in no business.

<articmine> The IRC bridge is down. given the importance of the upcoming dicussion / vote I do not belive it is fair to expect all the participants to have to type on a phone with thier thumbs. Yes I do have Element for desktop on my laptop but still we should be encouraging community participation

IRC bridge looks up here

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> Again? I thought this was fixed 2 days ago. It was working yesterday. Why does it keep going down?

test post from IRC

<hashido:matrix.org> Success

<articmine> Great. It is working. now. Thanks

<stnby:kernal.eu> @articmine: fuck IRC we can't prove their identity

stnby ofc we can

from NicKServ: You are now identified for nioc

br-m> <articmine> The IRC bridge is down. given the importance of the upcoming dicussion / vote I do not belive it is fair to expect all the participants to have to type on a phone with thier thumbs. Yes I do have Element for desktop on my laptop but still we should be encouraging community participation

the bridge is down?

it is up

I'm on IRC I think I can see matrix msgss

it is up

whoops

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> looks good from my end

<dgently:catgirl.cloud> It is up

Hi.

<anhdres:matrix.org> I've been taking notes for myself during the week and uploaded them here if someone wants to read: gist.github.com/anhdres/90a32c8ce3c68c3c3219e69aa586a766

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @stnby:kernal.eu: I think people generally have a feel for the people we know vs those we dont. It'll be interesting to see if there is a divergence between known community members and the vegas/macau type characters

matix can be slightly delayed or more

<ctrej:matrix.org> hello all :)

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> But I think the community here is savvy enough to know the difference more or less

Meeting time: monero-project/meta #1418 monero-project/meta #1417

<anhdres:matrix.org> they're by no means complete but if they help someone so be it

<stnby:kernal.eu> mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/kernal.eu/bviauqFiAjUmMvogsyrvBmBG.jpg (Let the show begin)

<@TheFuzzStone:matrix.org> 🍿

Yeah, you can easily spot the shit stirrers. :)

Greetings

<sneedlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> hi

matrix bridge fine 👋

Hi from IRC

hi

<articmine> Hi

<hbs:matrix.org> hello

Hello

<user2570:unredacted.org> hello

<robert.blinov:matrix.org> hi

<joel:kernal.eu> hi

<enigmatik:unredacted.org> Hi

<stnby:kernal.eu> Hi

<mrcyjanek0:matrix.org> hey!

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> Buenas tardes

<deedledea:matrix.org> hello

<siren:kernal.eu> Hi

hi dee

<anhdres:matrix.org> @slowbeardigger:matrix.org: buenass

<hashido:matrix.org> Hi

<monerica:matrix.org> hello

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> Howdy

So... we got together to say hi to each other for 5 minutes, or...

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> @anhdres:matrix.org: Hello!!! Andresitooo

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> Bunch of sexy Monero people here

<siren:kernal.eu> ohai

<parasew:matrix.org> hi

<deedledea:matrix.org> hey nioc been a minute!

Holy heck.

That's a username I haven't seen in ages!

Hi.

(taking attendence)

Agenda?

<@TheFuzzStone:matrix.org> Who is the moderator of the meeting?

<orangefren:matrix.org> Hey guys :)

<siren:kernal.eu> @TheFuzzStone:matrix.org: should be plowsof

<shadowatlas:matrix.org> hello

imma gunna make a CCS to produce drama so we can get people to attend community meetings

nioc: Great idea! I'm in.

<hashido:matrix.org> @siren:kernal.eu: ofrnxmr i belive

ofrnxmr is chairing this meeting(s)

<siren:kernal.eu> mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/kernal.eu/uQvSjctawwrnMbqlbHCdRLdR.png (image.png)

<siren:kernal.eu> there are many joins

morning

Is the bridge up fr?

Matrix is getting IRC messages?

<siren:kernal.eu> fuck yeah even better then

<vostoemisio:matrix.org> 👋🏻

yes dukenukem

DataHoarder: thanks. ^_^

<chaser> hello

but not you

lol, nice.

that is weird, lemme check

Someone canceled me, obvs.

thanks everyone for joining. lets jump straight into CCS

one sec I'm checking the bridge, quick reboot

does that mean the bridge is down? test

can see your test from irc

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> i think bridge went down at datahoarders message?

test

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> @ctrej:matrix.org: X2

<siren:kernal.eu> @ctrej:matrix.org:

ok. we're back

<anhdres:matrix.org> @siren:kernal.eu: i don't see many new people

say "rotten sucks" if you see this on matrix.

<ctrej:matrix.org> pc account, this is too important for phone posting

dukenukem: no idea, the bot is not getting your messages at IRC layer.

<monerobull:matrix.org> I unfortunately can't stay for the vote so I'd like to have CT vote on my behalf

DataHoarder: great deal. I am banned in the Matrix room, so whatever.

so libera is not sending them to the bot

I think my opinion on this is very clear in the GitHub issue.

That'll suffice. :)

i dont see your messages on matrix rotten

<ctrej:matrix.org> ddlud, morris and parasew are all riat members and verified real people

Have a nice meeting. Regards to the canceloors.

bridge will be left untouched ofrnxmr thanks for waiting.

<siren:kernal.eu> @ctrej:matrix.org: they represent one org and get to have 3 votes

ccs: a. Koe - Research and Development, hardfork - repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/681

<hbs:matrix.org> @siren:kernal.eu: They are individually part of the Monero community

just awaiting merge, i believe. cc plowsof

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> But at least one of them joined explicitly to vote here

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> (apparently)

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/IWYoUBkJyxTZTxrZkWYtIuBz.png (image.png)

<siren:kernal.eu> @hbs:matrix.org: I have never seen them before. What are their contributions to the XMR community or their activity here?

<ct:xmr.mx> @ctrej:matrix.org: confirm

<plowsof:matrix.org> yes, luigi was ready for merges but the gitlab was temp offline (back now)

ccs: b. [MRL] Dennis Trautwein - ProbeLab P2P Network Metrics Proposal - repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/667

<ctrej:matrix.org> @siren:kernal.eu: I hope that there are enough people today that no vote hinges on +- 1 person

<stnby:kernal.eu> @hbs:matrix.org: if they ever had a MK ticket :D This is about MoneroKon community

they have been involved in prior monerokons

awaiting feedback addressed

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> So we know morris?

who's morris? i dont have them on the list of attendees yet

<ctrej:matrix.org> @siren:kernal.eu: We rented equipment from them for mk25, and they went above and beyond with setup + teardown, not only for their equipment, but also for ours + furniture and stuff

<hbs:matrix.org> @stnby:kernal.eu: They were at MK5, at their table close to the back of courtyard, you may even have talked to them!

<stnby:kernal.eu> @hbs:matrix.org: I wasnt at MK5 only MK3, MK4 and MK6

ok, we'll have time to focus on the monerokon stuff in just a few mins. lets get through the ccs list quickly

<articmine> I attended and spoke at all the MKs 1-6

<hbs:matrix.org> @stnby:kernal.eu: So maybe you shouldn't be allowed to vote?

<monerobull:matrix.org> Goat

<jwinterm:matrix.org> it's a party in here today 🎉

folks, were not on the monerokon agenda item yet. please be a little bit patient so we can get there

<siren:kernal.eu> @hbs:matrix.org: Maybe you shouldn't be. You're telling this to one of the people who set up your infra.

<stnby:kernal.eu> @hbs:matrix.org: But I was a sponsor for MK5

<ctrej:matrix.org> @ctrej:matrix.org: mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/xEKPTMItqqpgEOyZhoCGIdTV.png (image.png)

<hbs:matrix.org> @stnby:kernal.eu: individually or as a company?

<ctrej:matrix.org> @ctrej:matrix.org: not cool parasew

...

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @siren:kernal.eu: srsly bro, wut?

<stnby:kernal.eu> @hbs:matrix.org: As Digilol

<anhdres:matrix.org> @articmine: if a monerokon doesn't have articmine, is it considered a monerokon?

ok. ill wait

<ctrej:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: It was meant to be a joke I think

<ctrej:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/wKtGLaaIVgoliuGfwvMFdHzV.png (image.png)

<ctrej:matrix.org> @ctrej:matrix.org: this is somewhat concerning tho

everyone is ignoring the moderator ofrnxmr :)

please stop derailing the meeting

anhdres: I'll be sure to add that condition to the framework

ccs: c. Sneedlewoods - part-time dev, q3 repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/685

<plowsof:matrix.org> also awaiting merge

ccs: d. Vtnerd - full time dev, q3 repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/687

not yet voted on

<anhdres:matrix.org> ajs-xmr: that would avoid simoultaneous mks

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> +1

<plowsof:matrix.org> merge

<monerobull:matrix.org> Yes on vtnerd and sneedle

please vote with a +1 or "merge" etc message, the emojis dont translate to the logs

+1

<anhdres:matrix.org> +1

+1

<mrcyjanek0:matrix.org> +1

<hbs:matrix.org> +1

<vostoemisio:matrix.org> +1

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> +1

<sneedlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> +1 koe and vtnerd

<articmine> +1

<parasew:matrix.org> +1

<orangefren:matrix.org> +1

<deedledea:matrix.org> +1

<monerica:matrix.org> +1

<robert.blinov:matrix.org> +1

ccs: e. panagot12 Monero LWS Observatory — Public LWS Health Monitoring repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/686

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> +1

<jwinterm:matrix.org> +1 on vtnerd

I might be wrong but e) reads a bit LLM generated (the whole proposal)

i dont think youre wrong

<plowsof:matrix.org> yes

<vostoemisio:matrix.org> ofrnxmr: -1? (no merge)

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> selsta: It does

its a new proposal. can revisit at the next meeting. if you think we should close, you can say close or -1. or merge / +1

<monerobull:matrix.org> Is that a 3000€ uptime kuma

yes

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> the "— " are pretty... telling xD

<monerobull:matrix.org> -1

<parasew:matrix.org> revisit

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> @parasew:matrix.org: x2

<monerobull:matrix.org> If we can't do referral votes I am voting for orangefren now, I unfortunately can't stay any longer. Se ya

Even if. If the proposal is of value it shouldn't be a death sentence to use AI to help writing IMHO. I vote revisit anyway

<articmine> revisit at the next meeting

ok thanks

<comradeblin:matrix.org> @monerobull:matrix.org: Same

<ctrej:matrix.org> revisit is fine

ccs: g. r4v3r23 - ANONERO Continued development repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/671

<monerobull:matrix.org> binaryFate: Fable can code that for a $50 prompt. No need for 10 xmr

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> Sorry for the interruption, do we need to vote on all all propositions? Y/N/Abstain?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: for ccs, no

monerobull: I was not judging that particular proposal, just making a general remark about the AI-assisted writing.

the controversy with anonero proposal, is that plowsof asked for access to make issues on the repo, and was not granted as much. an anonero fork was created that implemented (iiuc) all of the proposed features

so whether or not to have the work redone by the proposal (not accepting issues or PRs) is the main point of contention

while its not a hard rule, other ccs funded open source projects allow contributors to submit patches and issues on their repositories. anonero doesnt seem to do so

<user2570:unredacted.org> maybe revisit

<hbs:matrix.org> ofrnxmr: That looks more like "source available" than "open source" to me

speaking of AI - the dev i have commissioned to complete anonero's CCS has done so in a few afternoons. i have been testing their app and uncovered a bunch of issues with the existing anonero app (and fixed) - they have now moved onto FCMP stressnet - completing the first (?) hot <> cold wallet transaction and are now integrating vtnerds lws fcmp

branch. testing the app also allowed me to discover a stressnet + monero/gui bug : monero-project/monero #10901 and monero-project/monero-gui #4645

not familiar with the history but it sounds very opposite to OSS practices and maybe even OSS ethic

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> I'll go no

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> -1

said anonero-fork codeberg.org/iuanv9/anonero-fork/releases

<jwinterm:matrix.org> also imo seems a bit silly to fund yet another wallet, there is no shortage of wallets at this point...

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> @jwinterm:matrix.org: Agreed

the fork is also the first mobile wallet to be built against fcmp++ and send an fcmp++ transaction

ok. are we ready for the main event?

<mrcyjanek0:matrix.org> back in my days on anonero - after I left the project - all PRs I did open as open source contributions got ignored / closed unless someone else re-applied the patches so seems it’s still the same

cjan the cold wallet only displays the first destination on the confirmation screen - a malicious view wallet can drain it and you happily click confirm.

noticed after pay to many was added

Lets move on to the MoneroKon discussion

during last week’s MoneroKon meeting, I offered multiple proposals.. to continue under the association with a more formal governance structure or an LLC.. either under a self-funded model or a CCS-subsidized model. however, I lost the vote, 7-0-5. I conceded and congratulated OrangeFren on his win

afterwards, I had some time to reflect. I concluded that MoneroKon was at risk of becoming over-commercialized and decided to pull the circuit breaker

since MoneroKon has operated as a community project since 2019, moving to a purely for-profit model is a major change that should have been reviewed by the wider Monero community

I revoked everyone’s access to accounts to avoid someone posting malicious or confusing content/announcements regarding the next edition

the goal was to preserve the status quo

How do we move forward from here?

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> Thanks for bringing the issue to the broader community. I think you helped us understand the more central issue at hand

👎️ > <ajs-xmr> I revoked everyone’s access to accounts to avoid someone posting malicious or confusing content/announcements regarding the next edition

🤨 > <ajs-xmr> I revoked everyone’s access to accounts to avoid someone posting malicious or confusing content/announcements regarding the next edition

<ctrej:matrix.org> ajs-xmr: All access was revoked, not only outreach as depicted here

<@TheFuzzStone:matrix.org> I didn't prepare this post in advance; I wrote it during this meeting, since I've already said everything I had to say on GitHub and in the MoneroKon chat, and I came here purely for the 🍿.

<@TheFuzzStone:matrix.org> AJS, who was so worried about a "corporate takeover" of MK that he offered his LLC to organize MK7, lost a vote in the MoneroKon chat to people he knows personally for few years, publicly slammed the door, and said that OrangeFren will organize MK7 and that he sill hand over everything necessary to OrangeFren to manage.

<@TheFuzzStone:matrix.org> But then AJS realized he had access to various resources and decided to take advantage of the situation.[... more lines follow, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/3sWn3JULRk5CcGlq ]

I would like to request that any votes we have in this meeting from this point on, that of you plan on voting, vote on all of them

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> It seems many of us have converged on the idea that custody of the socials, domains, and servers/infra should be segregated from anyone one particular organizer of futere MoneroKons

dont vote on one item and then ignore the rest.

<midipoet:matrix.org> ofrnxmr: There is gonna be multiple votes?

yes, see here monero-project/meta #1418

I would propose to revert everything back to core until a proper governance structure is in place for MoneroKon

+1

...someone tell the mosquitoes to go touch grass for a bit.

<ctrej:matrix.org> core is a black hole

Twisted Edwards Association makes a formal resolution with the 3 members (midipoet, andres, myself) to donate all Intellectual Property rights in MoneroKon and the MoneroKon Fund to the Monero Project. The resolution would explicitly release the MK5 team, who are currently acting as custodians, from any legal liability for transferring funds to the Monero Project.

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> Before we vote on WHO

We are currently working with a Czech law firm and the handover to core could be completed in a few weeks.

the first item is in regards to the revoking of access without consulting with anyone, and a change in custody. there was a discussion about how to move forward in the immediate aftermath

1. Change of custody for MoneroKon and Community properties currently controlled by ajs, to a 2 party system. 1 active, 1 backup. (@MoneroKon [Twitter/X], Monero Community Workgroup [YouTube], MoneroKon.com+org [domains], MoneroKon [GitHub], and any others). [Yes | No | Abstain]

<anhdres:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: i'd even go as far as not allowing custodials of monerokon IPs to vote on the choice of who organizes the next monerokon or having any income related with monerokon, as being a provider of any service

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> We need to agree that custody should be segregated

ofrnxmr: I understand you are trying to stricly adhere to the agenda, but I think the proposed item/votes are too restricted

<siren:kernal.eu> ajs-xmr: seems like you already decided without consulting the community

Lord...

i am offering this as an option

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> It would be nice if people disagreeing to the agenda, had mentioned that before the meeting

<ctrej:matrix.org> @siren:kernal.eu: AND didn't inform community before the meeting. Everbody was bringing all parts to the table otherwise smh

the current item to be voted on can include core, the question is whether ajs should retain custody

<stnby:kernal.eu> Imo the assets should stay with TE as they are rn

<jwinterm:matrix.org> multi-custodian ownership of rights and socials backstopped by core seems kinda awkward logistically

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> I prefer Core to have custody rather than the current status quo, but don't think throwing things back to Core is sustainable long term or beneficial to decentralization

I think generally the assets belong to everyone and the community at large, and core can custody them while allowing usage to whoever organize a given year (like AJS did last year with Orangefren). I would vote for this, but the prepared items/vote are not specific enough for me to express it.

<midipoet:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: When were the voting options commited to the GitHub issue?

<ctrej:matrix.org> Its annoying that community as a whole discussed prior to the meeting, yet key people have "surprise" information during the meeting

<comradeblin:matrix.org> I vote OF

binaryfate, the #2 allows for you to propose that

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> exactly

<@TheFuzzStone:matrix.org> @ctrej:matrix.org: That's the point. So, we have another meeting, and then another, and another, so MK7 starts the org process in May 2027

ofrnxmr: I know but my point is I don't want to vote yes on #1 if it's not custodied by core

<comradeblin:matrix.org> Cant read since my matrix keeps crashing

<ctrej:matrix.org> @comradeblin:matrix.org: this vote is not about who organizes, but who holds custody of the socials

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @ctrej:matrix.org: Exactly. We discussed this for an entire week. Springing new info on the group at meeting time only hinders progress. We could've discussed many things ahead of time.

<stnby:kernal.eu> I vote TE holds all custody

<midipoet:matrix.org> @ctrej:matrix.org: This is the fault of those that were creating the voting options. The last I understood it was only one vote, about MK7, and that others would be decided through discussion (and subsequent votes).

I'll anyway abstain as I'm part of core and I think it is proper for me to abstain. Just pointing it out.

@comradeblin:matrix.org: libera.monerologs.net/monero-community is replicating/storing logs

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> Not all participants can invest time into keeping up with the drama all week

<comradeblin:matrix.org> @ctrej:matrix.org: I vote TE

<hashido:matrix.org> @stnby:kernal.eu: +1 without AJS on the board

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> binaryFate: So it's not about the principle of segregating custody, it's about whether or not you control it, correct?

<stnby:kernal.eu> And we make the statues more strict to avoid future such problem

<siren:kernal.eu> +1 without AJS on the board

<joel:kernal.eu> +1 without AJS on the board

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> +1 to a 2 party system, main + backup.

<articmine> We need a neutral party to control the socials and assets. I see core as a last resort option

you guys all skipped to question 2

It's about having a many years-long pretty provably disinterested party holding it. It's never been about me.

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: you didn't ask me, but I feel the same way: I trust Core collectively more than any individual nominee (save tuxsudo, who I respect)

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> @articmine: on point

<stnby:kernal.eu> @articmine: I see core as a noop

<comradeblin:matrix.org> +1 wo AJS on the board

<siren:kernal.eu> Absolute no to core and ajs, two party system of two volunteers is fine

LOL

These people are a joke.

<ctrej:matrix.org> Vote 1:

<ctrej:matrix.org> > Change of custody for MoneroKon and Community properties currently controlled by ajs, to a 2 party system. 1 active, 1 backup. (@MoneroKon [Twitter/X], Monero Community Workgroup [YouTube], MoneroKon.com+org [domains], MoneroKon [GitHub], and any others). [Yes | No | Abstain]

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> +1 Without AJS on the board

<articmine> We need a neutral party to control the socials and assets. I see core as a last resort option <<>> +1

<ctrej:matrix.org> Vote 2:

<ctrej:matrix.org> > Current Nominees for the 2 positions are: Ceetee, ComradeBlin, tuxsudo. Does anyone wish to nominate themselves or someone else for the roles of delegating access to the aforementioned properties and acting as a backup. Note: nominees should be willing to accept the nomination and be willing to serve in either role.

<anhdres:matrix.org> of the options I see proposed, I think TE or core should maintain custody of MK's IP.

<anhdres:matrix.org> if TE is the case, I'm personally open to add more members or discuss how it works internally

<@TheFuzzStone:matrix.org> @siren:kernal.eu: +1 for this

<ctrej:matrix.org> It seems like everybody is typing in chat without reading the agenda

<orangefren:matrix.org> +1 for no core, no ajs

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @ctrej:matrix.org: wait hang on

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> ceetee, we're not done with #1\

<siren:kernal.eu> @ctrej:matrix.org: hey this might confuse people maybe you should delete it

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> ups

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> hold the horses

<ctrej:matrix.org> @siren:kernal.eu: agree with siren here

<hbs:matrix.org> +1 for vote #1, with the reserve that individuals may disappear overnight

<monerica:matrix.org> +1 Without AJS on the board

<parasew:matrix.org> +1 for 2-person system

<mrcyjanek0:matrix.org> +1 to for 2-person custody, no ajs

<ctrej:matrix.org> +1 to for 2-person custody, no ajs

<siren:kernal.eu> +1 for 2 person custody, no core, no ajs

<shadowatlas:matrix.org> +1 for 2 nominees

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> +1 to for 2 person custody

<robert.blinov:matrix.org> +1 to 2-person, no core, no AJS

<user2570:unredacted.org> +1 for 2 person custody, no core, no ajs

+1 for 2 person custody. Core and AJS fine.

<vostoemisio:matrix.org> +1 for 2-person custody no ajs

<dllud:matrix.org> +1 for custody to 2-party system)

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> I think it's important that we separate the question of WHO, from the question of principle. The principle of segregation is to preserve that the Monero community is in control of use of these resources. This is in fact the more important question.

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> It's not appropriate to say "I only thing my friends should have control." We should agree to a segregated custody first, then decide who

<localparticl.com:matrix.org> +1 for 2-person system

<ctrej:matrix.org> @ctrej:matrix.org: revising: +1 to for 2-person custody, no ajs, NO CORE

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> +1 to for 2-person custody, no ajs, core preferred

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> +1 for 2-person system

<@TheFuzzStone:matrix.org> +1 for 2 person custody, no core, no ajs

<ctrej:matrix.org> @TheFuzzStone:matrix.org: lets make the best out of this mess, shall we?

<midipoet:matrix.org> What exactly are we voting on here?

<enigmatik:unredacted.org> +1 for 2 person custody, no core, no ajs

<midipoet:matrix.org> Or are people just throwing out nominees

<monerica:matrix.org> +1 for 2-person system

<siren:kernal.eu> @midipoet:matrix.org: Change of custody for MoneroKon and Community properties currently controlled by ajs, to a 2 party system. 1 active, 1 backup. (@MoneroKon [Twitter/X], Monero Community Workgroup [YouTube], MoneroKon.com+org [domains], MoneroKon [GitHub], and any others). [Yes | No | Abstain]

<stnby:kernal.eu> 2 person is 2 legal entities or natural people?

midipoet read the room, please?

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> this midi > <@ctrej:matrix.org> Vote 1:

Change of custody for MoneroKon and Community properties currently controlled by ajs, to a 2 party system. 1 active, 1 backup. (@MoneroKon [Twitter/X], Monero Community Workgroup [YouTube], MoneroKon.com+org [domains], MoneroKon [GitHub], and any others). [Yes | No | Abstain]

<joel:kernal.eu> +1 for 2 person custody, no core, no ajs

+1 for 2 person custody. Core and AJS fine, eligible.

am I correct that we are not voting about who but rather if?

@seen ofrn

writing down everyones votes

double work since everyone is voting on 2 items at once

oh so there are 2 votes

nioc: could be...

the first was whether custody should be moved to a 2 party system

the second was nominees for who those parties should be

to that I vote yes

to the first

<articmine> For the first I vote yes

+1 2 person custody, i'm okay with core, ajs based on how they unilaterally revoked access no

<chaser> I reject is ajs's any further involvement in the Monerokon project, either as an organizer or a custodian of assets (funds, domains, etc). he blatantly disregarded the decision process, took domains/access hostage, started a smear campaign against OF and arbitrarily moved the conversation to a venue where he can gain more supp [... too long, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/7OXq3JULYzZUbkZ0 ]

<chaser> therefore, +1 for no core, no ajs

lol

there were public apologies in that _public_ GitHub issue.

He organized basically all MoneroKons but the first and last one.

But sure, cancel him for protecting stuff. :)

The smear campaign comes from the other end. Check your lens.

how many can we vote for?

how many people? or how many what

how many people

ranked choice?

multiple, ranked

yes

most people already answered the 2nd question, for for those who didnt:

2. Current Nominees for the 2 positions are: Ceetee, ComradeBlin, tuxsudo. Does anyone wish to nominate themselves or someone else for the roles of delegating access to the aforementioned properties and acting as a backup. Note: nominees should be willing to accept the nomination and be willing to serve in either role.

The raison d'être of core is nowadays to custody assets for the community that cannot be held in a decentralized way. Community funds or domains such as getmonero.org for instance, just like monerokon.org could be. In terms of maximizing the resilience of the setup over several years through drama and up and down and people living and what not, I doubt you will find any setup more resilient (and fairly neutral) than what core can do.

this expanded to TE and core as nominees

I nominate core for backup/custodian

+1

+1 core

the bridge died

cc DataHoarder[m]

DataHoarder

seems working?

I see no messages on monero.social that differ

i see your message, but not most others

mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/monero.social/wxrGMUinFGEMvpqnLMiBiNDu.png (image.png)

monero.social issues?

so other domains are not getting messages into it?

Just use libera.monerologs.net/monero-community/20260711

I guess

monero.social seem dead

or something

@joel:kernal.eu: since here no more non-monero.social messages

<chaser> binaryFate: in this case I would like to first know who exactly from Core would take on this role, not just a nebulous "Core."

I see non-monero.social users typing

the others are stuck typing

they never sent the non-typing maybe selsta

I mean, the only three active core team members for the past few months, if not few years are luigi1111, binaryFate and ArticMine.

Do we have anyone else? :)

ok so this is a matrix issue?

defed with matrix.org maybe?

yep

i think so

Why would you like to know who exactly from Core would take on this role?

ofrnxmr: bridge will bridge what is seen from monero.social perspective

🤷‍ shrug...

assets would be registered to the email monerokon⊙go, administered by Core. I don't think it's very nebulous, you have 2 members in this meeting already.

<me:afk.pm> +1 for 2 person custody, no core, no ajs

<morris_riat:matrix.org> yes, so we have to change that, and create a more robust system

<user2570:unredacted.org> +1 comradeblin, stnby

ofrnxmr: confirmed monero.social desync irc.gammaspectra.live/3fe84e543808316c/image.png

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> test

I'd like to hear some rationals for "no core", would be useful feedback if nothing else

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> this

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> We're not voting yet for #2

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> We havent even put all the options on the table

<sneedlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> Yeah, who are all the nominees? Apart from the ones mentioned in the issue: ceetee, ComradeBlin and tuxsudo.

<me:afk.pm> binaryFate: Centralization bad

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> everybody slow down

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> we are currently on the nominee part of the vote

<midipoet:matrix.org> But if custodians are all board members of the Association, they can be held accountable through legal recourse, and removed from the board. It would be quicker than trying to regain access from some rogue individual in some country somewhere

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> not yet voting on those nominees

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> you can suggest, based on what i saw on the github topic

<ctrej:matrix.org> chairman ofrn shall indicate when we move to the next vote

<joel:kernal.eu> @sneedlewoods_xmr:matrix.org: and also stnby

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> @me:afk.pm: I trust any Core member more than any of all the other nominees combined

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> that's the question

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> we will have worse centralization picking any other 1 or 2 custodians because at least Core is itself more decentralized by being more than 1 person administering the role

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @sneedlewoods_xmr:matrix.org: we are currently deciding that. stnby, te, and core have been added

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @midipoet:matrix.org: Legal recourse is slow, and by the time it forces their hand, we would already have had to rebrand/pivot the infra

<siren:kernal.eu> binaryFate: getmonero.org/2019/11/19/warning-compromised-binaries.html

<siren:kernal.eu> @siren:kernal.eu: getmonero.org/2023/11/04/ccs-wallet-incident.html

<stnby:kernal.eu> @siren:kernal.eu: Also malware on getmoneroorg post mortem promised never given

<ctrej:matrix.org> @jbabb:cypherstack.com: core is notorious for beeing slow and uncoorporative

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @ctrej:matrix.org: Core is just people

<sneedlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: sorry just noticed matrix skipping messages, will try to follow on monerologs

<midipoet:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: I understand this, but what if these individuals go rogue? At least if it's board members, they are known, identified and have legal responsibilities to the Association and it's assets

<morris_riat:matrix.org> I found the thoughts of hbs very reasonable: "My personal preference would be to have any party organize MK as long as the financial benefit of such organization benefits the Monero community also and not solely the organizer. This could be done in multiple ways, have the organizer buy the right to the MoneroKon brand by donat [... too long, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/krqZ3ZULbkg0QlRC ]

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> worse. monerologs lost a lot of messages

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: People who already have a lot on their plate. Saying "core" is something I hate anyways, because it obfuscates the exact people responsible for custodying the assets

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: Nevermind that "core" has seen no shortage of lost funds

<siren:kernal.eu> stnby, comradeblin, ceetee, tuxsudo all are great candidates. just please no core and TE. none of these latter two parties can sysadmin and have abused their positions before.

ok, i think we're back in sync

<jwinterm:matrix.org> @stnby:kernal.eu: I am just kind of anti-core accruing any more power over anything at this point, I don't think it's healthy given not only history above but posture as truly decentralized project moving forward

<ctrej:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: yes, if we mandate "natural people" that core can't be a voting option

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> ofrnxmr: Feel better now

the logs on element look wacky but new messages seem to be working. very big slowdowns on monero.social (10s+) on some requests

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> @jwinterm:matrix.org: so to decentralize instead of picking a group of people to administer 1 role and have a backup we are going to have just 2 people do both

<ctrej:matrix.org> @ctrej:matrix.org: you can nominate luigi or binay fate if they want to take up the role

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> @jbabb:cypherstack.com: so from >2 people to exactly 2 people

<plowsof:matrix.org> @jbabb:cypherstack.com: physical access to the box was deemed the cause, although no audits or anything to that effect are public, just going by what fluffy said in public rooms

+1 for core as backup

<midipoet:matrix.org> @siren:kernal.eu: I believe both Core and TE should be options for the vote, and nominate them both

<stnby:kernal.eu> When do we vote?

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> @plowsof:matrix.org: Core today isn't the Core at the time of those incidents, either

<anhdres:matrix.org> stndy, TE, core, ceetee even ajs is a candidate in my view (setting this weeks actions aside, he's been running it without issues for years)

<stnby:kernal.eu> ofrnxmr: will tell us when to begin

<stnby:kernal.eu> networking issues

<ctrej:matrix.org> binaryFate: natural people only. If you like to be nominated as binaryfate and willing to take the obligation go for it. "core" obfuscates responsibility and puts even more eggs in one basket

current nominees are: stnby, ceetee, comradeblin, core, tuxsudo --- did i miss anyone?

<user2570:unredacted.org> @anhdres:matrix.org: replace "core" with binaryfate

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @stnby:kernal.eu: When ofrn says go

<jwinterm:matrix.org> @ctrej:matrix.org: are we doing KYC?

current nominees are: stnby, ceetee, comradeblin, core, tuxsudo, TE --- did i miss anyone?

<midipoet:matrix.org> @ctrej:matrix.org: Here ofrnxmr please tell people they can't just start saying that some entities aren't allowed to be nominated

<anhdres:matrix.org> @user2570:unredacted.org: sure, np

<ctrej:matrix.org> @midipoet:matrix.org: means only kyc'ed people can be selected

<jwinterm:matrix.org> how to know if one handle = one person?

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: just wait till the options are all on the table in one message

<dgently:catgirl.cloud> @morris_riat:matrix.org: I missed this, both original post and then this post on irc. Not what we are voting on but great thoughts

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: When it's time to vote, can I request a single message that lists each option, and then says "GO".

<ctrej:matrix.org> @midipoet:matrix.org: was my opinion. chat is moving quick so sorry if I didn't file the proper form

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: yes, currently trying to confirm the list

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> I think it makes sense to allow multiple votes for multiple people too. And then the #1 and #2 people become primary/backup.

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> current nominees are: stnby, ceetee, comradeblin, core, tuxsudo --- did i miss anyone?

<@TheFuzzStone:matrix.org> @anhdres:matrix.org: Can you explain why the community shouldn't pay attention to what AJS did last week? Although, sure, put him on the list - let the community have its say in the vote.

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> current nominees are: stnby, ceetee, comradeblin, core, tuxsudo, TE --- did i miss anyone?**

<ctrej:matrix.org> are nomenees allowed to vote?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> yes

jwinterm I have 2 accounts but will only be voting from 1

there was a proposal to replace "core" with binaryfate, which seems reasonable

<articmine> I support this

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> I believe that is reasonable too

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> i think we'd have to replace core with binaryfate -- articmine is core and he said no

<anhdres:matrix.org> @TheFuzzStone:matrix.org: i didn't say "not take into account" I myself i'm taking both, the bad actions of this week but the good experience of the past

<siren:kernal.eu> @articmine: hey ArcticMine could you clarify what do you exactly support?

<midipoet:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: Explain this?

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> But if there is contention about it, better to just let it stay as "core"

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> current nominees are: stnby, ceetee, comradeblin, binaryfate, tuxsudo, TE --- did i miss anyone?

<siren:kernal.eu> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: that's it

I think ArticMine is in reference to geonic's message

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> midipoet: willing?

TE as currently organized - i.e. midipoet, anhdres, ajs ?

they should confirm given speed of conversation

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @midipoet:matrix.org: I would like to vote for at least 3 or 4 people that I am okay with. Otherwise we end up in a plurality situation, which often negates what people would ACTUALLY rather have had in a runoff situation. It's a more "fair" way of voting

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> yes, @geonic

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> fuck it, @mrcyjanek0:matrix.org, you willing? I trust you more than any of the other nominees other than binaryfate

<ctrej:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: "list in order of preference" is what the meeting notes say

<midipoet:matrix.org> I am part of TE

<articmine> Yes My reason is that I have been a speaker and would likly appply to be a speaker in the future.

<hashido:matrix.org> All assets should be returned to TE, which is where they originally belong. AJS should formally resign from TE and a vote should be held to elect a new nominee. I don’t think it’s that difficult...

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @ctrej:matrix.org: ah, okay. How do we resolve that tho in terms of weighting?

<siren:kernal.eu> didn't binaryfate say i'm abstaining? did he explicitly agree that he'd be the core member responsible for MK's assets?

<mrcyjanek0:matrix.org> @jbabb:cypherstack.com: sure thing!

<midipoet:matrix.org> But I think it's important to note TE can have more board members, change board members, etc

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> multiple votes is the simplest.

this makes a lot of sense >>> > <hashido:matrix.org> All assets should be returned to TE, which is where they originally belong. AJS should formally resign from TE and a vote should be held to elect a new nominee. I don’t think it’s that difficult...

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @hashido:matrix.org: not all assets even belong to te, such as the monero community workgroup youtube

<midipoet:matrix.org> People can be nominated to TE also, and more than likely be accepted

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> @mrcyjanek0:matrix.org: for president

<hbs:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: Yes, one vote per nominee, then count the results and select top 2

<ctrej:matrix.org> @hashido:matrix.org: requires kyc to be on the board. historically it has been difficult to find candidates...

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> TE > Core > the rest because I respect groups more than individuals

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @jbabb:cypherstack.com: ofrnxmr is 6 people

<midipoet:matrix.org> @ctrej:matrix.org: This creates a potential bias, if votes are transferable

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @midipoet:matrix.org: ?

<siren:kernal.eu> I vote for comradeblin, stnby (also ceetee or tuxsudo as secondary)

midipoet has ajs offered to resign from TE or are there any indications of this happening

<user2570:unredacted.org> current nominees are: stnby, ceetee, comradeblin, binaryfate, tuxsudo, TE(midipoet, anhdres, ajs)

<morris_riat:matrix.org> so wouldnt it be easier to change the TE board members to those voted for?

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> There is a pretty huge gray area about whether TE controls these assets, or @ajs_:matrix.org personally.

<hashido:matrix.org> @ctrej:matrix.org: We can give it a go before implementing a system that is unsafe and which exponentially increases any risk

<anhdres:matrix.org> @morris_riat:matrix.org: they have to do kyc and most people doesn't want to

<@TheFuzzStone:matrix.org> @siren:kernal.eu: +1 for this.

<stnby:kernal.eu> Cant vote for myself :)

<stnby:kernal.eu> comradeblin, tuxsudo, ceetee, TE, binaryfate

<robert.blinov:matrix.org> @siren:kernal.eu: +1

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @TheFuzzStone:matrix.org: Please guys, WAIT

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> stnby. you can vote for youself

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> dont vote until ofrn says GO

<sneedlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> 1. ceetee, and for backup either 2. ComradeBlin or 3. tuxsudo 4. Czarek

<@TheFuzzStone:matrix.org> Sorry

<@TheFuzzStone:matrix.org> My bad

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> hold the horses

<anhdres:matrix.org> wait

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> ok, everybody pause for 60 seconds

<@TheFuzzStone:matrix.org> No vote

<morris_riat:matrix.org> yes but this new person has also to KYC as i understood, at least to ajs, otherwise how he should transfer the URL rights and so on

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> Discussion first. Let the chairman run the meeting

<@TheFuzzStone:matrix.org> 🐴🪢

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @sneedlewoods_xmr:matrix.org: did czar accept?

maybe we should confirm whether the candidates are willing to be on the TE board, otherwise it seems like this vote would dissolve TE

<mrcyjanek0:matrix.org> yes I did

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> ok thanks

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> @mrcyjanek0:matrix.org: yes

<sneedlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> @mrcyjanek0:matrix.org: ^ if I interpreted this correctly

<enigmatik:unredacted.org> geonic: +1 for clarifying this

<anhdres:matrix.org> geonic: seems like a secondary topic, but since you brought it up I have no issue with either stepping down or continuing in TE

<midipoet:matrix.org> See here. > <@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> ?

<midipoet:matrix.org> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_transferable_vote

3. Vote on nominees. Ranked voting. List in order of preference.. when you vote, only post your vote, and dont add other messages until after everyone has cast their vote. nominees are binaryfate, ceetee, comradeblin, czarak, stnby, TE (nonprofit) tuxsudo.

<articmine> I would sugget that those who plan to apply as speakers at a future MoneroKon should be excluded. Yes I know that I have just excluded myself since I plan to apply as a speaker in the future

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> 3: TE > binaryFate/"Core" > Czarek Nakamoto > tuxsudo > comradeblin and I have no opinion regarding the ranking of the rest (or > ceetee > Stnby)

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @anhdres:matrix.org: agree. This is gets into too many forking possibilities

for the record: I abstain

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> @midipoet:matrix.org: this is good stuff, used in Ireland

<midipoet:matrix.org> geonic: I can't talk for ajs. You would have to ask him

I'd like anhdres and midipoet to remain involved so my ideal choice is to replace the third board member (or add more)

<siren:kernal.eu> stnby, comradeblin, ceetee, tuxsudo

<mrcyjanek0:matrix.org> I abstain since I got nominated

<vostoemisio:matrix.org> 1. cetee

<vostoemisio:matrix.org> 2. comradeblin

<vostoemisio:matrix.org> 3. binaryfate

<vostoemisio:matrix.org> 4. stnby

<vostoemisio:matrix.org> 5.tuxsudo

<stnby:kernal.eu> comradeblin, tuxsudo, ceetee, TE, binaryfate (in this order)

ceetee, binaryfate, comradeblin

<articmine> I abstain since I plan to apply as a speaker in the future

<anhdres:matrix.org> @articmine: I don't agree with your logic here artic

note: you can vote for yourself

<dllud:matrix.org> 1. ceetee 2. binaryFate

<ctrej:matrix.org> @mrcyjanek0:matrix.org: You ARE ALLOWED TO vote, even for yourself

<ctrej:matrix.org> @ctrej:matrix.org: you should be voting

<hbs:matrix.org> ceetee,binaryFate,TE,comradeblin,czarak,tuxsudo,stnby

<ctrej:matrix.org> ceetee, stnby, comradeblin, tuxudo

<siren:kernal.eu> did binaryFate nominate himself that everybody is voting for him? can someone clarify?

<lordx3nu:matrix.org> 1. ceetee. 2. comradeblin. 3. stnby. 4. tux.

<robert.blinov:matrix.org> Stnby, Tuxsudo, Comradeblin, Ceetee

<sneedlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> 1. ceetee, and for backup either 2. ComradeBlin or 3. tuxsudo 4. Czarek

<anhdres:matrix.org> TE, binaryfate, ceetee, stnby

<user2570:unredacted.org> comradeblin, stnby, ceetee, tuxudo

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> I'd like to hear the votes of abstainees anyways :P

<chaser> ceetee

<chaser> comradeblin

<chaser> stnby

<chaser> czarek

<midipoet:matrix.org> ofrnxmr: This isn't enough info. The vote runs the risk of not giving the "true" outcome.

<@TheFuzzStone:matrix.org> ceetee, stnby, comradeblin, tuxsudo, czarek

<parasew:matrix.org> 1. TE 2. binaryfate 3. ceetee

<mrcyjanek0:matrix.org> then my vote is comradeblin, tuxsudo, me

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> ceetee, tuxsudo, stnby, comradeblin, czarak

<monerica:matrix.org> Stnby, Tuxsudo, Comradeblin, Ceetee

<localparticl.com:matrix.org> ceetee, comradeblin

<me:afk.pm> stnby, comradeblin

<shadowatlas:matrix.org> comradeblin, ceetee

<enigmatik:unredacted.org> comradeblin, stnby, tuxsudo, ceete

<joel:kernal.eu> stnby, comradeblin

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> ceetee stnby tuxudo

<hashido:matrix.org> TE, Stnby, Comradeblin, ceetee

<midipoet:matrix.org> Guys, I am out. You're obviously not listening

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @midipoet:matrix.org: chairman asked for no other messages other than voting

<wvrld:matrix.org> ceetee, stnby, comradeblin, czarek

<morris_riat:matrix.org> TE, ceetee , binaryFate

<deedledea:matrix.org> (1) TE

<deedledea:matrix.org> (2) binaryFate

<deedledea:matrix.org> (3) ceetee

<znuf:matrix.org> ceetee,stnby,comradeblin

I don't think this vote is organized well and it seems that it's being brigaded so I abstain

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> @midipoet:matrix.org: I'd still appreciate to hear your vote regardless that you have issues with the validity of the question, if you wouldn't mind

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> geonic: Please be specific. Who?

<siren:kernal.eu> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: brigaded by who? how?

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> bunch of nobodys I've never seen contribute anything--no offence, nice to meet you, etc, but this seems sybiled af

<anhdres:matrix.org> @siren:kernal.eu: how would you rather vote?

maybe I'm out of touch but I don't recognize half the people voting ?

<articmine> Can we define the voting rules first?

<articmine> then procced with the vote

why have they been silent during the discussions and only appear now

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> geonic: 80%

here's a simpler proposal: midipoet and anhdres agree to vote ajs off the board (if he doesn't resign willingly) and elect a new board member ? let them handle it

but does TE hold the assets or does ajs

<articmine> midipoet and anhdres thougts?

nioc: TE

thx

<siren:kernal.eu> geonic: 95% are from MK room

<siren:kernal.eu> geonic: we held a vote in MK room but ajs forced us to revote here

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @anhdres:matrix.org: I see people we know, have been around for awhile, and/or were in the MK room

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: So if you're going to accuse of brigading, it's your responsibility to say WHO exactly is brigading

<me:afk.pm> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: This is just poisoning the well

<midipoet:matrix.org> @articmine: Exactly. It's not clear how the order of preference works, or whether the votes are transferable.

<jwinterm:matrix.org> 1. stnby, 2. czarak, 3. ceetee, 4. comrade, 5. tuxsudo, 6. binary

<hbs:matrix.org> @midipoet:matrix.org: voting 1/0/-1 for each nominee and adding up votes would be less disputable

<wvrld:matrix.org> @jbabb:cypherstack.com: “bunch of known people” voted last week, then ajs said the vote should become from a broad community, now its again problem with that “bunch of nobodys” are voting again… so like how is this supposed to be done then ?

<me:afk.pm> @siren:kernal.eu: Does one have to reiterate points and pollute a chat to qualify as a member of the community?

<pw:xmr.mx> cant it be done as a poll? does that feature work on IRC too?

<johnzzzzz:matrix.org> I vote stnby, comradeblin

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> @wvrld:matrix.org: fair point

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> maybe a verification process before voting? idk

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> @wvrld:matrix.org: nah I think it's fine to have a big group overall, I don't really think the vote is being brigaded--probably not, anyways. I will respect the vote (not that that really matters lol I have no authority in this)

<anhdres:matrix.org> @me:afk.pm: many people are just lurkers (myself most of the times) but are entitled to an opinion

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> and I'm sorry :)

<ravfx:xmr.mx> I vote ceetee

heading out... I'll read the log later

<me:afk.pm> @slowbeardigger:matrix.org: Oh yeah I think it's called KYC

<siren:kernal.eu> @ravfx:xmr.mx: two people please

<siren:kernal.eu> @siren:kernal.eu: so your vote is valid

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> Those of you objecting, your in a small minority. Oh and the chair asked that we refrain from commentary until after the vote is over

<siren:kernal.eu> @siren:kernal.eu: @ravfx:xmr.mx: ping

<hbs:matrix.org> geonic: IIRC only ajs is an actual board member, the other two are filling in to reach the minimum requirement of 3 members for a CZ association

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> Also, it's becoming fairly clear what the community sentiment actually is

<siren:kernal.eu> @articmine: they're not nominees. please vote between stnby, ceetee, comradeblin, TE, binaryfate

<me:afk.pm> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: Bandwagon fallacy, what is this even supposed to mean

<morris_riat:matrix.org> @me:afk.pm: Exactly, I didnt want to put more oil in this drama fire but care much about MK and the monero community. I couldn't follow the last few meetings and just got to know about the situation/discussions 2 weeks ago...

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> It's sufficient to say that, if TE receives a clean win, then all of these secondary and tangential questions can be answered at that time. But it only confuses matters right now

<@TheFuzzStone:matrix.org> @wvrld:matrix.org: I'll say it again: vote correctly, because if you vote incorrectly, you'll upset people with your incorrect votes.

<@TheFuzzStone:matrix.org> I'm already seeing messages in the chat saying that this vote is "sybiled." So, I'm waiting for a message from the wise leaders saying that we need another vote in one week.

My vote is TE, Core (no BF, that's bs. even if it will be BF the actual one, better to refer to it as Core instead. not only obfuscates a little who is running it, it also spreads responsibility over the other Core members.) Anyone else next.

<monerobull:matrix.org> Based and EU pilled

<johnzzzzz:matrix.org> Democracy is an asylum ran by the inmates....

@midipoet, no i dont think its tranferrable

Hi

...same logic could be applied to voting for TE itself...

<robert.blinov:matrix.org> @monerobull:matrix.org: Almsot choked on my water while reading this

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> check PR-STV

<user2570:unredacted.org> ajs-xmr: what?

<midipoet:matrix.org> nioc: ajs has custody of all assets and always did. In theory they are either TEs, or "held for the community" by TE, but that's not codified in any legal manner (as I understand it).

Ajs would be part of the options I'd strongly vote for (TE and Core), if he is a nominee, that is.

thx midi

ajs said he doesnt want to be

<anhdres:matrix.org> @articmine: on what specifically? ajs is currently the chairman deciding on TE's matters. midipoet and me are members

<ravfx:xmr.mx> 1 ceetee, 2 stnby

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> Seriously wut? ajs-xmr you called this meeting. And you still never responded confirming that you would abide by the results of the meeting

<morris_riat:matrix.org> @morris_riat:matrix.org: Perhaps it would be better to think everything through again, explain and list all the options—and above all their consequences (for TE, etc.)—and only then vote on it, say, next week??!

+1 morris_riat

<comradeblin:matrix.org> Stnby ceetee Czarek

<ctrej:matrix.org> @comradeblin:matrix.org: you are allowed to vote for yourself

<articmine> @anhdres:matrix.org: On the proposal that ajs resigen or be voted out

<comradeblin:matrix.org> Irem is voting for me. My matrix keeps crashing

<siren:kernal.eu> @comradeblin:matrix.org: that's me btw ^

<comradeblin:matrix.org> She is interpreting votes in pm signal

<stnby:kernal.eu> @midipoet:matrix.org: its in the invoice :)

<midipoet:matrix.org> ofrnxmr: but then why vote down to any number past your first two choices? Surely you vote two people, and the two people with highest numbers of votes, win the vote?

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @stnby:kernal.eu: TE isnt the only party paying for that infra anyways

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> At best it's legally murky. The most responsible decision is to abide by the community decision here today.

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> I also find it interesting, as typical, certain parties are disputing the vote process AFTER the voting took place

<midipoet:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: Yes, I agree. Which is why I pleaded for clarity on how the voting was working!

<articmine> But surely the community should knwowhere TE stands

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> This is EXACTLY what happened last week with ajs himself. He lost a vote, unanimously (with previous MK volunteers mostly abstaining), then disputed the vote that he called

<articmine> know where

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> So we wont accept these objections this meeting. This is the second vote, that ajs himself called

a github meta issue is also an option. less brigade-able than a chatroom. also, since this vote is being held here, I don't think it's too much to ask for voters to have participated in this room before.

<user2570:unredacted.org> someone pls count the votes

TE board is all in the room with us ArticMine

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> If you objected to the nominees or the voting, it should have been stated before voting began, or at least before most of the results were already in

<ctrej:matrix.org> the repeat votings won't stop until moral improves!

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> geonic: What bridading. You need to state exactly which accounts you believe to be sock/astroturf

wont stop until ofrnxmr is elected supreme king*

bawdyanarchist: who is "we" ? and how is someone supposed to tell if a vote is brigaded before the brigadeers show up?

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> the whole voting "system" needs a redesign guys

moving on

4. Does community wish to continue @orangefren's nonexclusive access to use the necessary properties (X, YouTube, server) to organize a MoneroKon in 2027? [Yes | No | Abstain]

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> geonic: Just answer the question. WHO is brigading? WHICH accounts specifically.

<anhdres:matrix.org> @articmine: we haven't discussed that, afaik ajs created TE because there was a need for such a instrument to carry on monerokon business in meatspace. Sorry but I don't have a better response now. it's like another branch of voting we'd have to open

I haven't seen any of the supposed "people from the MK room" before and I don't know if they exist

<pw:xmr.mx> couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery..

<pw:xmr.mx> this is mayhem

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> 4. Yes

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> DIscussion right now yes?

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> We're not voting yet? Or are we voting?

<hbs:matrix.org> ofrnxmr: What was vote #3?

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> @slowbeardigger:matrix.org: If yall let me, i will think about it and provide ideas...

<user2570:unredacted.org> 4. Yes

<sneedlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> ofrnxmr: yes

vote on nominees, @hbs

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> @hbs:matrix.org: custodian preferences in ranked choice order

<lordx3nu:matrix.org> 4. yes

<siren:kernal.eu> Yes to OrangeFren

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> yes to @orangefren:matrix.org

<articmine> One vote at a time

<hbs:matrix.org> ofrnxmr: I meant result of vote #3

<robert.blinov:matrix.org> ofrnxmr: Yes to OrangeFren

<jwinterm:matrix.org> +1 on 4

<siren:kernal.eu> comradeblin also says yes to OrangeFren over Signal (his Matrix crashed)

<vostoemisio:matrix.org> yes to orangefren

hbs, i need to go back through the chat and make sure that i didnt miss anyone

<mrcyjanek0:matrix.org> 4. Yes to OF

<localparticl.com:matrix.org> +1 OF

results will be posted with the meeting logs

<orangefren:matrix.org> Yes to me :)

<hashido:matrix.org> Yes to orangefren

<joel:kernal.eu> +1 OrangeFren

<stnby:kernal.eu> Yes to OnlyFans

<enigmatik:unredacted.org> +1 OF

<me:afk.pm> +1 to OF

<siren:kernal.eu> @stnby:kernal.eu: vote properly

<monerica:matrix.org> +1 to OF

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> +1 to OF

<chaser> #4 yes > <ofrnxmr> 4. Does community wish to continue @orangefren's nonexclusive access to use the necessary properties (X, YouTube, server) to organize a MoneroKon in 2027? [Yes | No | Abstain]

<monerica:matrix.org> @stnby:kernal.eu: OnlyFrens

<anhdres:matrix.org> +1 to OF

<ctrej:matrix.org> 4. +1 to orangefren

<shadowatlas:matrix.org> +1 OF (though I doubt that this will be respected by ajs)

<articmine> There seems to be a strong consensus for OF

<ravfx:xmr.mx> 4. +1 Orange

<shadowatlas:matrix.org> “If voting mattered, they wouldn’t let us do it”. ~ Mark Twain

<@TheFuzzStone:matrix.org> +1 to OrangeFren

<dllud:matrix.org> 4. abstain

<parasew:matrix.org> 4. abstain

<znuf:matrix.org> +1 orangefren

<midipoet:matrix.org> -1 to Orangefren

<hbs:matrix.org> 4. 0

-1 Orangefren

hbs, that is abstain?

<hbs:matrix.org> ofrnxmr: yes

<me:afk.pm> ajs-xmr: I thought you dipped

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> lol

<stnby:kernal.eu> since when - is an option?

<siren:kernal.eu> @orangefren:matrix.org: vote +1 for yourself since ajs voted -1 it's only fair

<siren:kernal.eu> although you probably don't need to

having dinner.. looking at progress

<pw:xmr.mx> @siren:kernal.eu: they did

Definitely NACK -1 to OrangeFren.

<plowsof:matrix.org> if financial opaqueness continues -1 from me

<midipoet:matrix.org> @stnby:kernal.eu: Well it's supposed to be Yes, No, or Abstain. People are doing +1 for the Yes, so why can't I do -1 for the No? Same outcome when votes are counted?

<articmine> +1 YES 0 ABSTAIN -1 NO

thanks artic

0

<morris_riat:matrix.org> -1 , I would like to see a organizing team, preferably non-profit

<anhdres:matrix.org> @plowsof:matrix.org: I agree. Monerokon financials should be open no matter who runs it.

<stnby:kernal.eu> @midipoet:matrix.org: Fair fair

+1 morris_riat

anhdres, does that change your vote?

<jpk68:matrix.org> Apologies for being late; +1 for Sneedle, koe, and vtnerd

<jpk68:matrix.org> cc ofrnxmr

<siren:kernal.eu> @plowsof:matrix.org: To clarify, OF didn't use community/CCS funds. You're not entitled to financial opaqueness.

<anhdres:matrix.org> if @orangefren:matrix.org won't open the numbers as past monerokons had, yes. I'd vote -1

<morris_riat:matrix.org> Can I submit a vote on OF should be tranparent when voted for organizing next MK!?

perhaps add a vote to the agenda: mandate transparency on financials

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> thirded

<ctrej:matrix.org> @siren:kernal.eu: +1

i think that changes this current vote entirely, geonic

<siren:kernal.eu> mandating transparency is a red herring, it's not on the agenda. OF did not use and will not use donor money.

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @anhdres:matrix.org: that's not how voting works

orangefren gets 100% of MoneroKon’s profit going directly to his private company with zero financial transparency

when issues are not discussed ahead of time it makes it difficult to have meaningful votes

siren: but he will use community assets to turn a profit ?

<ctrej:matrix.org> currently TE finances can not be accessed either...

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: You can vote for OF, or not. We cant count conditional votes.

<anhdres:matrix.org> I think right now @orangefren:matrix.org is the best suited to run next monerokon. but having transparency is a key feature of what makes monerokon special.

yes, you can hold a separate vote for financial transparency. then we can see where everyone stands ?

<me:afk.pm> @siren:kernal.eu: Exactly this

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> You guys are being very non-specific. "transparency" could mean anything

was suggested that the organizer pay for licensing but that opens up its own issues

<siren:kernal.eu> geonic: anybody is free to come organize their MoneroKon and use community assets. OF is making money as an organizer on his spent time and effort.

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> You need to say what exactly you want to be transparent. The bottom line?

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> Every single receipt and expenditure?

<monerobull:matrix.org> Just have OF donate 10% to the jet fund or something

the receipts were often not produced for mk "non profit edition"

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> geonic: Furthermore, this is again, springing something new, after having had an entire week to propose adding this as an agenda item

<anhdres:matrix.org> @siren:kernal.eu: it is not, people voting deserves to know if OF comes with a set condition that won't be possible to change afterwards

and the financials for those conferences exist in spreadsheets with vague descriptions

<monerobull:matrix.org> @monerobull:matrix.org: "community licensing fee"

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> I'm sorry, but meetings arent about adhoc pivots to new agendas. It's about discussing and agreeing on agenda beforehand, and then making decisions

<articmine> OF what are your thoughts on this financial transparancy question?

bawdy: the issue was brought up by multiple people just now. I do my best but am not a sightseer

yes but many things only take form during meetings

also, remember that I proposed to nominate people ahead of time. so at least I thought of that

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @orangefren:matrix.org:

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> geonic: "brining up" an issue is not the same as converging on a specific question and agenda item

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> It's valid to introduce the question of transparency. Nominees' opinions on or commitment towards a level of transparency affects peoples' (at least my) vote

we are converging now. don't be so rigid.

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> Those of us who participated all week, we openly proposed questions/agenda, discussed, tweaked, etc

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> geonic: If we were converging, you would have proposed something specific

<orangefren:matrix.org> @articmine: I couldn't tell you on such short notice. If it was on the agenda I'd have thought it through

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> those of us who coded all week...

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> were not in the chat rooms constantly...

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> Is it there like a paper/governance docs and stuff that i can check?

I did: vote on whether organizers of MoneroKon should be mandated to release all financials

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @jbabb:cypherstack.com: for the current vote, it is implied that orangefren would be organizing in a similar manner to mk6

or at least to the level that they've been released for prior monerokons

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> that is the entire reason why we are here

<siren:kernal.eu> you had an entire week to adjust the agenda and raise additional concerns

mk6 = mk7 = MoneroKon, Inc.

<morris_riat:matrix.org> Isnt there a way, that ppl that dont want to get KYC/registred with their natural name could enter TE board over a notary, legal representative or so?

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> we had an entire work week... to work

why block a vote on what seems to be a pivotal issue to many in the room?

<articmine> @orangefren:matrix.org: I understand

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @geonic because the vote answers that question

<ctrej:matrix.org> @morris_riat:matrix.org: no

ofrnxmr: no, it doesn't. you can vote for orangefren and want financial transparency. these are not mutually exclusive

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> transparency is not pivotal to me but a preference. not willing to die on the hill of requiring transparency because at the end of the day, OF organizing as has been done in the past is OK with me

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> Think about what yall are asking. Everyone knew that OF +/- would be on the agenda. Not a single one of you busy busy bees proposed an agenda item that would forcibly tie OF running MK7, to releasing all of his financial records.

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> but at the end of the day, if >50% of the voters pledge to not change their vote for OF regardless, it doesn't matter, geonic

<ctrej:matrix.org> People demanding financial reports, when financials of past mks were dubious at best. I have a once public spreadsheet from 2023 with 8 entries that simply say "transfered to ajs", without reason

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: again, we have jobs and work on Monero related things

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @geonic they are mutually exclusive. orangefrens bid did not include such, and is currently not a close vote

<ctrej:matrix.org> and possibly you guys weren't even aware of that fact

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @jbabb:cypherstack.com: Well then maybe you could've demanded this when OF was voted to do MK6 in the first place?

personally I wasn't aware of the issue, otherwise I would've brought it up

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> would you rather I code or pay attention to 4 days of drama chats?

<hbs:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: It's more a longer term question of how the community benefits from MK whoever the organizer is

moving on the the last item, and then we can continue further discussion

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @jbabb:cypherstack.com: I'd rather you have brought this up 7 months ago (or any time since), that OF should open the MK6 books

<siren:kernal.eu> @ctrej:matrix.org: one downside of the voting having moved to the main monero community room is that, there are many uninformed people here about how the previous and last years were. they don't have a solid reference or they can't make fair comparisons.

<ctrej:matrix.org> And you know me, I WOULD have dug through the past financials in prep for this meeting despite my 45+h work week, but unfortunately they are on the server which is conveniently offline /rant

<monerobull:matrix.org> I'm telling you, percentage of profit as a licensing fee

<articmine> My preference here is to see a strong consensus. I see strong support for OF but with some reservation on financial transparancy. If the financial transparancy can be address I do see the posibility of a strong consensus

currently this is a no-bid situation since orangefren is the only option on the table

5. Should access to socials/infra be immediately restored to a pre-lockdown state? [Yes +1 | No -1 | Abstain 0]

can financial transparency be brought up in MK meetings after the organizer is chosen?

<anhdres:matrix.org> judging by the length and forks of this meeting I think that there are at least two things that would need more time for people to make an educated vote:

<anhdres:matrix.org> * on the custody of assets, if TE will feature ajs or not or in which degree

<anhdres:matrix.org> * on the matter of running MK, if OF would open up the books or not

<anhdres:matrix.org> [... more lines follow, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/roHy3pULS0xWWnox ]

monerobull: this would require transparency

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> 5. Yes

<hbs:matrix.org> @monerobull:matrix.org: if profit is unknown this seems hard

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> btw, I do think it would make a lot of good faith sense for OF to release some top level financial

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> +1 #5

<shadowatlas:matrix.org> 5. yes

+1 anhdres

<mrcyjanek0:matrix.org> 5. Yes

5. yes

for context on #5, ajs revoked access to everone, not just orangefren

<user2570:unredacted.org> 5. yes

<siren:kernal.eu> there is not 5th item? what are we voting on?

5. yes

<hbs:matrix.org> 5. +1 (yes)

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> what are voting on?

< nioc> when issues are not discussed ahead of time it makes it difficult to have meaningful votes <== +1

ofrnxmr: socials, server, and password managers no?

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> Did I get another dropped message?

yes

also yes to anhdres

<localparticl.com:matrix.org> 5, +1

<siren:kernal.eu> are we having a stroke?

<joel:kernal.eu> 5. +1

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: 5. Should access to socials/infra be immediately restored to a pre-lockdown state? [Yes +1 | No -1 | Abstain 0]

<monerica:matrix.org> 5. yes

<hashido:matrix.org> 5. +1

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> +1

<stnby:kernal.eu> 5. Should access to socials/infra be immediately restored to a pre-lockdown state?

<stnby:kernal.eu> +1

<lordx3nu:matrix.org> 5. yes

<siren:kernal.eu> yes

<ctrej:matrix.org> 5. yes!

<enigmatik:unredacted.org> +1

<anhdres:matrix.org> 5. +1

<robert.blinov:matrix.org> yes

<wvrld:matrix.org> 5. yes

<me:afk.pm> +1

<ravfx:xmr.mx> 5+1

<siren:kernal.eu> comradeblin also says yes, restore access over Signal

<stnby:kernal.eu> @siren:kernal.eu: I think he needs to join our instance

<sneedlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> 5. yes

<dgently:catgirl.cloud> Or he can join this one

<anhdres:matrix.org> nioc: it rhymes!

<midipoet:matrix.org> Anyone that is talking about this now, but didn't vote -1, or No to vote no.4, is really being quite unhelpful > <@bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> btw, I do think it would make a lot of good faith sense for OF to release some top level financial

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @midipoet:matrix.org: I would vote for OF, even if he didnt open his books

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: Because he has shown himself to be a good actor thus far.

<siren:kernal.eu> @stnby:kernal.eu: sure

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: Now, does that mean MK8 I will certainly vote for him? No. But thus far, you guys never even bothered to make MK6 OF contingent upon opening his books

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: You're late

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: at the end of the day: agreed. I'd prefer OF be transparent but that transparency could be incremental or best-effort and we'll judge future organizers based on how it goes

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: This is post hoc, after the fact

@jbabb:cypherstack.com: threads are very weird on IRC, I'd recommend using normal replies

<anhdres:matrix.org> DataHoarder[m]: i rather have a black box mk than no mk, but I brought up the question because for some people might be a dealbreaker (and I rather have open financials if possible)

<znuf:matrix.org> YES

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @midipoet:matrix.org: OF has shown himself to be a good faith, responsible actor. But again I posit -> if this was SUCH an important matter, that he open his books ... why didn't everyone make his running MK6 contingent upon opening his books, in the first place??

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> It's weird to see this now, raised as an objection, by the very people voting against him (now in the 2nd vote he has swept)

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: this wasn't on many of our radars whatsoever over this entire time period. I'm here because ajs misbehaved.

because we were late in the calendar and we WANTED a MK :)

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @anhdres:matrix.org: Understandable

<chaser> does the pre-lockdown state also imply that ajs can again kick anyone out?

<anhdres:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: things are not black and white, many could have just assumed (like i did) that MK6 was going to be organized using the same style of open financials as past mks did

@chaser, no, it means that the people he kicked be restored

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> I suppose it's sufficient to say, that there's a clear request to @orangefren:matrix.org that he open his books to at least some degree.

<vostoemisio:matrix.org> Late but yes > <ofrnxmr> 5. Should access to socials/infra be immediately restored to a pre-lockdown state? [Yes +1 | No -1 | Abstain 0]

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> I think that's fair

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> Ok, been writing this down... this is the first time I join one of these votes and… damn. we’re deciding who runs a flagship event with the brand and the money, and we did it as a live free fo all in a desyncing matrix/irc bridge.

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> the candidate list changed 5 times while people were voting...

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> We had to pause mid vote because half the room didn’t even know it started!!!. Someone openly admitted two accounts, someone else called it “sybiled af”, and we have zero way to check because there’s no roster, no signed ballots, nothing......[... more lines follow, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/-duX35ULelNDbDY4 ]

<siren:kernal.eu> @znuf:matrix.org: To 5th agenda item btw

+1 slowbeardigger

<midipoet:matrix.org> > <@bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> OF has shown himself to be a good faith, responsible actor. But again I posit -> if this was SUCH an important matter, that he open his books ... why didn't everyone make his running MK6 contingent upon opening his books, in the first place??

<midipoet:matrix.org> That's what I am saying. If there was an issue with transparency of financials for some people, those people should have voted "no".

<midipoet:matrix.org> I understood that MK would probably continue in the same manner as last year if voted for orangefren, which is why I voted "no". As financial transparency was important to me, and indeed also why I advocated for a non-profit to organise it, which was a proxy for greater community oversight and more transparent accounting.

midi, as voted, it will be the same as last year

<deedledea:matrix.org> 5 +1

<anhdres:matrix.org> if @orangefren:matrix.org organizes in the name of the monero community I think it's reasonable to know how much sponsorships are charged, how much is spent, how much is profit. not every single details and certainly not their own numbers. I think besides the accountability, it also helps future organizers have real data to know what they're getting into before making proposals

if there are changes to that from OF side, that is his choice

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @anhdres:matrix.org: Does Doug do this?

ofrnxmr: don't you think it would be better for things to be spelled out rather than implied

bawdy: Doug relies on his own brand and his own efforts in creating and popularizing Monerotopia

completely different situation

they arent implied. orangefren never agreed to host under a different model than mk6. ajs did, and ajs lost that vote

<chaser> ok. why should ajs retain any access though after this? following his conduct over the past days, his access is a clear liability to the future of MK. > <ofrnxmr> @chaser, no, it means that the people he kicked be restored

<anhdres:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: monerotopia is not a community run event nor is it the "official" monero conference. doug is free to do whatever he wants

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> @slowbeardigger:matrix.org: I will propose something later, when things calm down...

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @slowbeardigger:matrix.org: It is pretty difficult to coordinate. This is also an emotional topic rn. However, some very clear things emerged.

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> 1. We agreed to segregate the custodian from the organizers

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> 2. OF has overwhelming support for MK7, open books or not.

chaser, it looks like consensus is that ajs will now retain any access

not*8

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @anhdres:matrix.org: I was just curious, I wasnt saying they were equivalent

was that held to a vote or is that also implied :)

it was held to the first vote.

i counted zero votes against a custody change

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: Good stuff, can be done without a lot of noise , ill come up with an idea for you all

<midipoet:matrix.org> I know this. Thank you. > <ofrnxmr> if there are changes to that from OF side, that is his choice

Monero Community Workgroup [YouTube] <-- when did this channel get folded into MoneroKon btw?

its not

<chaser> thank you. in that case, I vote yes on #5. > <ofrnxmr> not*8

bawdyanarchist: Doug built his own brand. Here, MoneroKon built up a reputation over the years through volunteer labor and CCS subsidies.. now it is being sold out

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> even if the complaints about the clarity of votes are valid, the outcomes seem pretty clear and I don't think further clarification and debate would materially change the outcomes

<hashido:matrix.org> ajs-xmr: How much?

<ctrej:matrix.org> Monerokon had access, so we could post videos without involving a 3rd party. ajs removed access from all accounts he had access to, whether part of mk or not

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> I disagree about the way this comparison is being made (OF never received CCS funds), but perhaps this is not a great vector for us here.

hashido: MoneroKon's soul

<anhdres:matrix.org> sorry I have to drive, will reply to stuff later

I have cat nurse duties at another location to attend to, l8r

<midipoet:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: He is definitely gaining access to community assets and potentially reaping profit from them. The suggestion to request a "leasing fee" is valid. A percentage of profit seems most fair, but would require open books for us to verify the profit

we can end the meeting here. results of the voting will be posted alongside the meeting logs. there seems to be pretty clear consensus on the change of custody, whether OF can organize mk7 w/ no fine print, and whether community revokation should be reverted. with regards to the votes of who the new custodians shall be, i will have to go back

through the logs and make sure that everybodies votes were accounted for. It would be appreciated if ajs would restore access to those he revoked from, and change custody once those votes are tallied

<articmine> thank you

<orangefren:matrix.org> Thank for the work ofrnxmr

<hbs:matrix.org> ofrnxmr: Thanks for running such an intense meeting

thanks everyone for being patient with me.

<user2570:unredacted.org> thanks

<localparticl.com:matrix.org> thanks ofrnxmr

and for attending and being involved. community strong

<ctrej:matrix.org> thank you ofrn!

<stnby:kernal.eu> Thank you everyone for this great meeting

<jbabb:cypherstack.com> Congratulations to all nominees and especially to our to-be-tallied 2 custodians

<vostoemisio:matrix.org> 👋🏻

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @midipoet:matrix.org: Why do you consistently have to make these weird pivots like this?

matrix having classic federation issues in the middle was crazy. I'll stop keeping an eye to the room too intense :)

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: Now you want to introduce a leasing fee?

<chaser> thank you, ofrn

<@TheFuzzStone:matrix.org> Thanks guys. Thanks ofrn for your work. 🫡

<me:afk.pm> Thanks ofrn

I hope the new custodians will respect future community votes and hand over access if deemed necessary

<joel:kernal.eu> thank you ofrn

it would be great if we could get their confirmation on that point. ofrnxmr can you facilitate ?

on what point

<ctrej:matrix.org> I think that is mandatory before starting the role

the one above

oh, yes, the new custodians are supposed to only act on community sentiment. no decisions on their own

<ctrej:matrix.org> Stating commitment to follow future community votes and hand over access if the community deems it necassary

right, just get them to state that publicly so we are not running on assumptions

will formalize it in a transfer of power ceremony contract :D:P

add it to the frameworkTM

<@TheFuzzStone:matrix.org> Sorry for being late with this, I was driving. > <ofrnxmr> 5. Should access to socials/infra be immediately restored to a pre-lockdown state? [Yes +1 | No -1 | Abstain 0]

<@TheFuzzStone:matrix.org> 5. +1, yes.

<znuf:matrix.org> @TheFuzzStone:matrix.org: x2

<znuf:matrix.org> Already voted yes on 5 but i was drivi g too and didnt make that last one clear

<dark.macau:matrix.org> Oh no! I was on Macau time. Is it too late??

<dark.macau:matrix.org> I want sponsor

<dark.macau:matrix.org> @orangefren:matrix.org: will you sponsor MK_Macau?

<dark.macau:matrix.org> 3 and 5 +1 OF if he agrees I can sponsor.

<stnby:kernal.eu> @dark.macau:matrix.org: Macau license does not cover EEA

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> why even suggest conditional votes?

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> that's crazy

<dark.macau:matrix.org> I know lawyer in EU. We can cross the "t" and dot the lower case "j"

<chowbungaman:matrix.org> Thank you ofrn and bawdy etc. I did not vote but watched. Congrats to OF for taking over Monerkon again this year. My understanding is he did a great job on the last one. Thank you to all the Monero bros who were pivotal in running past monerkons. Ajs deserves thanks and respect for the past work he put into running Monerokon [... too long, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/4qPu35ULMEZqSVZu ]

<joel:kernal.eu> can we have dumplings sponsored in MK7

<orangefren:matrix.org> I'd like to thank the community for selecting me and my team to host MK7 (again). I'm also very grateful to those of you who spent the past week coming up with solutions to ensure future MKs can be organised in an orderly manner and without chaotic announcements and emergency meetings.

<orangefren:matrix.org> Next week I'll conduct additional research with respect to venues and plan a meeting in the MK room so that you can pick where (and when exacty) MK7 takes place

<orangefren:matrix.org> 🧡

do we get a vote on some level of financial transparency, orangefren?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> you can vote for ajs llc if you want that

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> you can ask nicely though!

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> lol

<joel:kernal.eu> geonic: my 2c on this matter, sponsorship prices are available (at least until now), and the amount of attendees, for me if community funds aren't used I'm fine without financial transparency

ofrnxmr why are you speaking for him

<orangefren:matrix.org> geonic: "him"? This question was directed at me?

<orangefren:matrix.org> mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/hxHzOHGhxAemUbHzmCNemBVx.jpg (28567.jpg)

<orangefren:matrix.org> Thanks ajs

sorry for assuming your gender. yes, question was for you

<orangefren:matrix.org> Seeing that OF was selected *without* any fine print you don't get to compel me

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> how does ajs know how much OF raised if there wasnt some lvel of transparency?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> orangefren COULD operate as a black box, but has not done so

<orangefren:matrix.org> Many crypto conferences do. You gotta ask nicely just to know how much the sponsorship costs

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> its a secret tho

but we could get to compel you in a future vote, no?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> no

ofrnxmr: ?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> you could compel him to walk away and let you run it

you're still answering for "him" for some reason :)

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> maybe i am him, ever think of that?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> i mean, theres nothing stopping community from renigging on the vote today, but that would be some shameless posturing

<stnby:kernal.eu> geonic: To my understanding only the future guardian(s) of the domain/media/other IP could compel anything towards the future organizer as long as the future guardian(s) listen to the community opinion. But seems like the consensus is to let the organizer worry about what they do with their financials.

wait wait... we just clarified that the custodian is only to act as a result of community sentiment and not on their own. now you're saying that the custodian has the powers to compel an organizer, etc, etc. which is it?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> reading comprehensio

<stnby:kernal.eu> No I am saying as long as the custodian listens to the community. As we had issues with this. Thats what the whole fuss is about this week.

<stnby:kernal.eu> Ofc custodians have the hard power over the IP, just like ajs did. Lets just hope the history does not repeat.

custodians have custody, they don't have power. community has power, including to remove the custodian at will. I think we're mixing up the two

<stnby:kernal.eu> Best part is that custodians won't be the part organizing the actual conference. Meaning there are no monetary incentives to interfere.

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> Would be ok if I daft an idea for future voting?

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> To propose it later

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> This here is great for discussion but for[... more lines follow, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/gLyP4ZULbkNSWm95 ]

<stnby:kernal.eu> geonic: community has power only if custodians are loyal and listen

but yes, separating custodian from organizers is a step in the right direction

agreed, which is why I suggested to have a public commitment from future custodians to abide by community decisions before taking on their role

<me:afk.pm> What good is a verbal commitment

<stnby:kernal.eu> It is a basic expectation.These custodians will have their reputation on the line. And none of the todays options are some anonymous Y person.

<me:afk.pm> "I pinky promise" isn't something binding, it only hinges on their incentive to not be perceived as a dishonest person

it avoids the situation of "i never committed to that so you don't get to ask me", which is the argument ofrn is using to defend orangefren's opaqueness

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @me:afk.pm: Let's ask ajs this question then

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> I assume that he's going to honor the will of the supermajority in the 2 voting rounds that he requested.

<stnby:kernal.eu> geonic: Even if you signed a doc with a notary that has no influence over a hard power. Court route would take too much resources.

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> But he refused to confirm that in the lead up to, or in the meeting. Then he started talking about legal garbage and transfer of custody, for which he probably has no legal basis to do

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> (transfer to "core", that is)

<me:afk.pm> Let bygones be bygones, let us observe his behavior from here on out

<me:afk.pm> It was all very immature and unnecessary, I agree, but kinda pointless to drag it out

based on the screenshot orangefren just posted it seems that he is abiding by the community's decision

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> So of course, the irony is that, either ajs does the right thing as an individual person, or he uses his corporation as a shield to transfer custody, unilaterally, to the person that he selected, against the will of the community. In which case it basically proves that corporate structures arent necissarily superior

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> geonic: Yes that's a good start

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> Forgive me if not just me, but others that were previous MK volunteers, are concerned that he might still try to find a way to not honor the outcome of the vote today.

stnby: I agree, which is why the TE board proved to be ineffectual in this "crisis"

<me:afk.pm> He's also removed himself as admin of the MoneroKon channel

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: I mean, that he might evade transferring custody.

<me:afk.pm> Also I believe since the "emergency meeting" is over, we can probably move back to #monerokon:matrix.org

<stnby:kernal.eu> geonic: It did not prove that. In TE case it wasn't just reputation it was also a crime on the line.

<stnby:kernal.eu> It increased a chance of this meeting happening

<stnby:kernal.eu> geonic: It did not prove that. In TE case it wasn't just reputation it was also a crime on the line.

14:35 < br-m> <stnby:kernal.eu> It increased a chance of this meeting happening

LOL

so is it better to have the new custodians elected as members of TE and move on from there

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> Well anyways, I'll try to back off some here. I just wanted to voice that, despite voting, we still need to see the completion of custody transfer.

<stnby:kernal.eu> geonic: Thats up to community to decide. Maybe in the future meetings

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> And the maintainers/admins restored

<stnby:kernal.eu> > @ajs-xmr has invited you to collaborate on the MoneroKon/monerokon-vitepress repository

it would also require those elected to be willing

<me:afk.pm> @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: I appreciate your vigilance

bawdyanarchist: thank you for being the squeaky wheel on this one. well done.

<joel:kernal.eu> I think we should discuss some safeguards to avoid this from happening in the future, perhaps what we were talking about money incentives/penalties

<stnby:kernal.eu> @joel:kernal.eu: Would you put the money? Who protects the money? Its just making another problem

<stnby:kernal.eu> safeguards is I will find you and I will talk to you :D

<joel:kernal.eu> @stnby:kernal.eu: break kneecaps

if the new custodians join the TE board it at least raises the possibility of legal repercussions

<stnby:kernal.eu> geonic: I agree with that but it wasn't for vote today. Maybe next time.

<joel:kernal.eu> @stnby:kernal.eu: with the right incentives yes, multisig between the the custodians, it's just an idea

<stnby:kernal.eu> @joel:kernal.eu: You would have way less volunteers to take the custody responsibility.

<chaser> we've already went through this: it would require KYC, which is a no-go for many participants. also, how about not relying on the state for organizing stuff for the most anti-state crypto community? > <geonic> so is it better to have the new custodians elected as members of TE and move on from there

<stnby:kernal.eu> KYC is good for custodians

<stnby:kernal.eu> I would never trust someone like luigi for example

<ofrnxmr> you wouldnt trust me :(?

luigi actually isn't as anon as you think

but yes, I don't think we can compel anyone to join a nonprofit board. if the new custodians are willing though (and it would be a good sign if they are), it wouldn't necessarily require a community vote

<stnby:kernal.eu> @ofrnxmr: Not really :D

<me:afk.pm> @stnby:kernal.eu: Being a well-known member of the community who shows up to events etc. is a plus, but announcing their identity for the world to know is a no-go

<stnby:kernal.eu> The problem with TE that it has a bunch of money that needs to be dealt with and people that were not expecting it would be forced to clean that mess. Especially with the fact that someone else is organizing the event now.

<ofrnxmr> @stnby:kernal.eu: Whats the rush

<me:afk.pm> @stnby:kernal.eu: There's gonna be a lot of unhappy people with any of the outcomes

<stnby:kernal.eu> @ofrnxmr: The Monero cartel might want the money back

TE would need that money as a reserve in case they need to take legal action against a rogue board member :)

<ofrnxmr> @stnby:kernal.eu: Its in a legal nob-profit. Not so easy to get it back

<chaser> security bonds custodied by high-reputation people is how many trust networks have been operating for millennia, and it's present to this day even in crypto. > <@stnby:kernal.eu> Would you put the money? Who protects the money? Its just making another problem

<stnby:kernal.eu> Guys, its just a domain. We are no CocaCola group. Holding a patent for MoneroKon.

<joel:kernal.eu> @stnby:kernal.eu: it's a brand, with social media and other accounts, sure it wouldn't be a crisis to lose it all but reason enough for an edition not to happen

<plowsof:matrix.org> luigi isnt anon because he is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent

<ct:xmr.mx> You may underestimate the value of a good reputation, especially because its much harder to build anon. > <@joel:kernal.eu> I think we should discuss some safeguards to avoid this from happening in the future, perhaps what we were talking about money incentives/penalties

<joel:kernal.eu> @ct:xmr.mx: that's true, maybe I'm just overthinking it

if the price is right, people are happy to lose their reputation for a profit. e.g. fluffypony

<321bob321> Let me guess, fake account voting ?

I only voted from 1 of my 2 accounts

<321bob321> He has a friend called mario > <geonic> luigi actually isn't as anon as you think

and works as a plumber

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> monero-project/meta #1423

<anhdres:matrix.org> lol this whole week I kept thinking @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org was the new geonic :) > <geonic> bawdyanarchist: thank you for being the squeaky wheel on this one. well done.

<instantexchangedoti2p:matrix.org> Damn sin

<instantexchangedoti2p:matrix.org> I voted from 2 of my 1000 accounts

<slowbeardigger:matrix.org> @instantexchangedoti2p:matrix.org: The voting situation needs to be improved/fixed

anhdres lol

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> Speaking of voting, I have an unofficial tally. Please do not take this as official, I assume @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx will provide results. Just consider this a first glance.

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/ydqBOiAwoCRAlbzFHWPbRbek.png (image.png)

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/gANSxyUBOPzrzsfxScnDLoNm.ods (monerokon_vote.ods)

<bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> It looks like ceetee had the most votes, and also had the most votes as the #1 choice.

<321bob321> New kon ceo

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> 45 attendees

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> vote 1 - custody change: 36 voted: 35-0-1

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> vote 2 - nominations: added te, core, stnby, mycyjanek

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> vote 3 - new custodian: 39 voted: ranked tally = ceetee in 1st, stnby in 2nd

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> vote 4 - orangefren mk7: 34 voted: 25-5-4 (+2 conditional)[... more lines follow, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/lf_a6JULSlYzZFNs ]

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> (thats yes-no-abstain)

<321bob321> I vote for the referee

that referee was a dumbass

Norway’s goal should’ve stayed. BS call