I #LOVEMONERO #money #moneylaundering #Iamnotasleeperagent

anyone please feel free to tell if you have used monero and any sort of illegal activity

since that would be

very cool of you

8-)

Hi All, I received XMR from a crypto swapping service into an "incoming" throwaway wallet. I then sent all the XMR (via the sweep_all command) to my main wallet. Do I need to do any more churning to increase OPSEC and further separate myself from the crypto swapping service?

anyone?

nothing heard, I'll do it anyway.

Steven_M, no... you don't have to do anything else.

well, every time you send that specific output to a new address (or to the same address), it becomes 16x less likely to even theoretically be associated with its origin.

inge: So, you think I had the right idea?

yes, but it is not easy to probabalistically link it even without doing anything. And depending upon what you do, you might make it easier to make a probabalistic argument - e.g. if you send that output and some other outputs - combining outputs might make it easier to say they were both owned by the same wallet... so there could be some caveats. Also it might be good to randomize when an output is sent, not

doing it 3x as fast as you can (before monero got good enough that we can't tell anymore, the average age of an output was 1.8 days)

inge: Okay, would churning to new address instead of the same address help?

Proper churning is tricky

if you send everything to yourself 10 times in a row as fast as possible, it will be clearly visible on blockchain (sequence of spends 10-12 blocks apart)

churn no more than 2-3 times with random intervals (from hours to days between churns)

By random I mean really random - random.org will help

so you're guaranteed to not be biased by your timezone

sech1: Okay, I'll try my best, thanks. :-)

sech1: Since churning shouldn't be done in a row, I'm guessing that I shouldn't send XMR to a separate throwaway "outgoing" wallet right before I pay someone?

Steven_M: also, new address vs same address makes *no* difference. you can't tell the destination address on the blockchain at all ...

inge: okay :-)

you can use the same wallet for churning

there's a little difference in case your wallet gets compromised

if you churn in the same wallet, it will be visible

if you churn in a separate throwaway wallet, it will be only visible as sending funds to that wallet

just keep your wallet safe and then there's no difference at all

and by churning, we mean sending a specific transaction output - definitely not combining multiple outputs.

well, he already did sweep_all so he has 1 output

oh dear, I've been using the sweep_all command. I don't know how to deal with separate outputs :(

sweep_single

first you run "incoming_transfers available verbose" and find the output you want to sweep

then use it in sweep_single command

IIRC key image is the last column in incoming_transfers output

does key image==output?

idk

but it's what you need for sweep_single

well, technically each output is a key image so yes

okay, sorry, I'm not good at understanding output at all.

*outputs

inge: sech1: is there a way to setup a secure PM on IRC for the 3 of us? I've got one more question, but I don't want to ask it out here.

inge: sech1: I'll guess I'll just join/make a new channel and PM you guys the name of it.

hold your horses, I have no interest in private chats :D

I always forget the "incoming_transfers available verbose" command :D

sech1: okay, I'll ask my question out here and hope it doesn't damage my OPSEC.

inge: sech1: My procedure has usually been to receive XMR with a throwaway IN wallet, then transfer it to a Main Wallet (using sweep_all). Then when I want to pay someone I send the amount to pay + enough for the fee to a throwaway OUT wallet and then pay the person. Are you guys saying not to do that because the TX's would be too close together?

Use 2-3 churns with sweep_single after sweep_all to break the link

sweep_single within the main wallet

I pay the person from the throwaway OUT wallet, obviously.

that shouldn't be a problem if you only use churned outputs for it

I mean, the short interval from main to out wallet

you should watch youtube.com/watch?v=iABIcsDJKyM to get better idea of how Monero transactions can be statistically traced in some cases

What about the short interval between OUT wallet and the payee?

churning single outputs breaks this attack

short interval is not a problem if previous link is already broken

okay.

also, ring size was increased to 16 after the recent fork, so the efficiency of this attack is already reduced

this is why 2-3 churns will be enough

okay.

I guess I have to wait some time before doing this?

time between churns? yes

random intervals between each churn

sech1: okay, the payee will have to wait for their money then.

sech1: Thanks for all your info. :-)

Why wait? You could have some spare XMR already churned and ready to be sent

sech1: because, I only learned about sweeping singles now, so I don't have any that's properly churned.

how good is monero

narf: ?

inge: May I PM you?

sech1: *sigh* It's frustrating that churning has to be done at all, I am greatful for your help though.

You don't have to do it - it just helps in some specific scenarios

I think we found the international nuclear materials dealer, sech1.

That OpSec...

moneromooo, we were just talking about this the other day: twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/873177382164848641