<y​asabi:matrix.org> Kubutu and openSUSE are probably the biggest and best-supported (per docs, user guides, forums etc)

<y​asabi:matrix.org> oh looks like Plasma 6 just released last month, i should spin up a VM to check it out...

<d​ezinfik:matrix.org> arch ftw

<y​asabi:matrix.org> classic arch user 😏

<y​asabi:matrix.org> they still building all their packages with every compile-time flag enabled? 😂

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Plasma is like the most well integrated option imo (the one that suck the less)

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Except if you want a tiling manager, that's another can of worm

<y​asabi:matrix.org> i hadnt used KDE since pre-Plasma days until i got a Steam Deck around the holidays

<y​asabi:matrix.org> it is actually pretty nice nowadays

<y​asabi:matrix.org> used to be a lot jankier as its development cycle isn't as tightly integrated as GNOME's

<y​asabi:matrix.org> so it'd only be a few months before jank creeped in and ruined the UX

<d​ezinfik:matrix.org> they ask you now :D

<y​asabi:matrix.org> that's progress!

<y​asabi:matrix.org> arch is a good intermediate distro, i would hesitate to recommend it to someone just coming from a proprietary OS tho

<y​asabi:matrix.org> but i also haven't touched it in ages so i wonder how they've improved overall

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> For someone with less experience I would recommend Artix instead of Arch.

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Better installer That partition and encrypt the drive properly for a thing.

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> And alternative choiceS for the Init

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> The arch cloud image for a vm seems to be pretty easy to use

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> Not much to setup

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Artix is way easier then arch install

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Fck chroot

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Yeah, for a noob it's as easy as the classical next, next, next, reboot

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> I dont have to remember to change boot device 😬

<s​iren:kernal.eu> EndeavourOS is also nice

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Apple like

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Can anyone care to address my concerns for XMR?

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> 1) Increased government restriction. If governments required XMR users to share their view key after tracking people who ping XMR nodes through internet service providers, how would XMR continue running?

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> 2) Centralized developer team. If all the developers were compromised and a poisoned XMR codebase was released, we could technically fork XMR and use something else, but trust for the coin would cease to exist.

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> 3) Lack of liquidity. Biggest problem in my view. Even with DEX solutions, going from XMR -> Cash or XMR -> Goods and vice versa is difficult. A circular economy is unfeasible because of my 1st point as the coin would eventually get regulated forcibly if it ever becomes big.

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> I'm from the Bitcoin camp. I believe regulated coins are the future and that cypherpunk ideals are unrealistic. XMR already has a bad rap and I am not sure how the coin can overcome the concerns I listed.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> 1. This is completely unrealistic and worst case ill put my node behind tor or vpn to armenia.

1) You can always run your XMR node in a crypto-friendly country and connect to it through VPN/Tor

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> even the hollywood mafia with all their layers cant fight piracy and they have a financial incentive to do so

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> even the hollywood mafia with all their lawyers cant fight piracy and they have a financial incentive to do so

2) All development and source code is public. It takes one person out of the whole world to find any poison and ring the alarm bells before release

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> I understand. Is this the Daniel Kim argument? It is impossible for XMR to be banned in all countries because if it is, another country has the incentive to use XMR for gains?

3) LocalMonero and DEXes are the future

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> also just look at tor, developed by the feds, used by the feds

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> the feds also use monero

1 - yes, it's basic game theory

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> >I believe regulated coins are the future and that cypherpunk ideals are unrealistic.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> and i believe the regulated coins future is a joke

well, technically it's true - CBDCs are coming

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> I am not convinced by DEX solutions. I have seen all the DEX solutions that were attempted on BTC for almost a decade now and all were either regulated or do not have sufficient liquidity for extremely large amounts.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> congrats, theyve turned bitcoin into a speculative asset and nothing more

those weren't real DEX

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> if regulation is accepted, its 100% captured in a few years

you can't regulate something that has no centralized governance

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> wizbiz:

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…matrix.org/rumnEctibWdYdUMsjCbykZDF

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> thorchain is a real dex and has a fuckton of liquidity

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> This is going to turn into name calling

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> I predict 10 blocks ahead

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i prefer good arguments. we actually have those.

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> No. I apologize for the NGU idiots in the BTC community. I have been apart of BTC for long time now and I am sick of this bullshit. I see potential for XMR but it contains too many pitfalls.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> weve got an answer for nearly every concern :D

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Thorchian does not solve the problem of Crypto -> Cash or Crypto -> Goods

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Thorchain does not solve the problem of Crypto -> Cash or Crypto -> Goods

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> you can use haveno for crypto -> cash

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> See point 2 is valid for btc

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> (once live)

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Yes but this goes back to my problem of extremely large amounts. Cash by mail for $50 million is not possible.

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Btc core is 3 or 5 people? That can push code?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i know someone who can probably get you that

<s​iren:kernal.eu> You can find ways to wash that amount if you really have $50million

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> "Bad rap" again. Why do I have to engage in criminal activity to withdraw large amounts? With BTC, I can now easily withdraw with trusted CEX like Coinbase that is financially regulated and trusted.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Then don't engage in criminal activity? Fly legally to a jurisdiction where it's lax. Or use Kraken or other CEX. You can always pay taxes.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Even if you cashed out/received bank transfers from P2P trades.

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Bitcoin core has vested interests with many, many companies and organizations like MIT who fund development. I am not sure about XMR with suspicious CCS funds...

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Suspicious how?

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> These organizations keep the developers in check. Banks are also becoming involved as BTC becomes more integrated with financial services.

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Know one knows who sent what

CCS funds are distributed for specific proposals with clearly defined goals

So yes, they also "keep developers in check", but in a good way

because proposals are formulated by devs themselves

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Co opting by vc is not good

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> oh great, the banks keep your devs of "freedom fuck the banks coin" in check

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> We have ofrn for compliance

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Monero conpliance officer

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Monero compliance officer

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Hal Finney knew that BTC would become involved with banks and the coin was eventually going to be potentially used as a large settlement layer. Satoshi abandoned development after the WikiLeaks incident as the "hornet's nest" was kicked. I know my history about BTC and the "fuck banks coin" is rubbish.

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Satoshi did not want to anger law enforcement and this XMR coin does the complete opposite.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> bitcoin isnt even trying to be a currency anymore, the insano maxis even gave up on lightning turned their back on satoshi after the emails revealed hes an evil big blocker

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> bitcoin isnt even trying to be a currency anymore, the insano maxis even gave up on lightning and turned their back on satoshi after the emails revealed hes an evil big blocker

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> I thought btc was meant to be de banking ?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> its built to survive this

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> BTC was meant to allow payments without going through an institution. "Bank" was only mentioned 2 times in the original whitepaper to explain examples. Banks can still be involved with BTC, but this does not mean that payments are going through an institutional layer...

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> “It's pretty strange really that we all see a good chance that bitcoins will hit a dollar in the relatively near future. How many investments can be expected to triple in value in that time frame? Is gold going to be $3500 any time soon? Apple stock going to triple? Maybe Facebook, if you could get some. That seems like a pretty sure thing. We are really lucky to be in at the be<clipped message>

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> ginning of a possibly explosive new phenomenon. Considering the odds against most money-tripling investments, Bitcoin looks like a good place for a percentage of your portfolio.”

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> - Hal Finney

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> BTC can be both a currency and a coin that preserves value. No one gave up on lightning and developments are still happening.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> As a business owner I can't risk accepting BTC.

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Do you like ordinals too?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> >No one gave up on lightning

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> have you seen bitcoin twitter?

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Chain split

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> I'm not sure how this turned into an argument between BTC and XMR. I just wanted my concerns addressed and I was given disappointing answers I already read on the Reddit.

I opened r/bitcoin yesterday, that's a terrifying sight

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> I think you had your mind already made up

<s​iren:kernal.eu> What other concerns you have?

Everyone only cares about the price, 100% NGU retards there

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Old users of Bitcoin do not use that Reddit channel. We have a place that I will not name.

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Point 2 - co opt btc core

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Push bs code

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> its worse than r/dogecoin, at least that is sometimes funny

what's that secret place? bitcointalk.org ?

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Yeah

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> I can say the same about r/xmrtrader. Everyone there thinks exchanges are "suppressing" the price of XMR and that it will soon pump. Ridiculous.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> its a containment sub, not the main one

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> No. Bitcoinforum is a place for advertising gambling sites and bots.

at least the suppression theory has a pile of evidence to support it

if you frequent r/xmrtrader, they do post evidence periodically

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> ^

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> I think this is the most hilarious coping mechanism I have seen. There is no suppression and the evidence is hand-wavy.

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Wasn't there a similar issue with XMR NFTs and bloat?

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Nope

<s​iren:kernal.eu> No

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Got nuked cause we didnt want it

so you're saying Binance has enough XMR in their reserves, and the "withdrawal closed" are just because they have problems with wallet? Naive

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Chain bloat

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> that was a proof of concept to point out an issue

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> that issue was resolved

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> but bitcoin may never ever fork

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> OK. You win for that argument. I do like the frequent changes and upgrades to XMR. I do wish BTC was similar in that respect.

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> It did help with tx_extra size limit

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> thing is, if NFTs make any sense at all, they do so on bitcoin with data on-chain

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> and it even helps make it a tiny bit more realistic that bitcoin could survive without any block rewards

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i think its hilarious how starkly some people are against them

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Binance has too many reserves and you can track them on CMC. I am not sure why withdrawals close, but if Binance was manipulating XMR it would have been mentioned in the lawsuit with the SEC, so stop this bullshit.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> the stuff with the CVE was peak pettiness

Binance never published their XMR reserves

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> they literally showed the wrong chart on CMC

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> only for monero

and CMC is owned by Binance, surprise surprise

they can show _anything_ there

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Tail emissions are fantastic and there are talks in the BTC community to address this issue of transaction fee rewards.

lawsuit with SEC? XMR is not a security

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Why wasn't this included in the SEC lawsuit? Bullshit is why.

SEC don't care

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> which would annihilate the inflation is le bad meme

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> people have built their entire lives around muh 21 million

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> you cant tell someone "uhm, actually we were wrong and bitcoin is going to die without inflation" after they were told 21 million for 20 years

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Whats happening for craig wrong.

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> We do not think inflation is bad. I understand why you think this as the NGU community have loud mouths. Basic economics suggests deflation is bad and I hope the contribution by banks will persuade changes to this supply cap.

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> With*

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> No one cares about this fraud.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> so what is left for bitcoin if not NGU and capped suppl,y?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> so what is left for bitcoin if not NGU and capped supply?

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Making people spend money

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> its terribly slow, its terribly expensive, its terribly traceable

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> 1. Terribly slow -> Lightning and other solutions are being built for this. We can also take good features XMR has like dynamic block sizing and integrate it into BTC when the issue arises. BTC does not update anything if the chain works fine. We update when necessary.

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> 2. Terribly expensive -> Yes, this is an issue when the chain is busy, but lightning addresses this.

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> 3. Traceable -> Satoshi offered a solution to this. Use a new address for each transaction. We also have coinjoin and taproot.

Dynamic block sizing doesn't work without tail emission, few people know this

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> have fun with blocksize war #2

you need tail emission to penalize miners who make blocks too big

good luck pushing tail emission in btc :D

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> lightning doesnt work in a high fee environment either

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> ive seen people loose upwards of $65 when their channels were force-closed

lightning doesn't work in general

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> micro-payments my ass

it's an unsolved problem in computer science

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> At least people arent whinging on reddit why my transactions taking 4 eva

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Evidence?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> bruh

Evidence for what? Lightning?

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> I understand lightning has issues but saying it just doesn't work is ridiculous. It is still evolving.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> maybe the fact that nearly everyone uses custodial lightning

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> And the my concerns for XMR haven't been answered properly yet.

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> And my concerns for XMR haven't been answered properly yet.

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Like XMR and vulnerable remote nodes?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> what

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> ¿

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> all the nodes can do is lie to you about high fees and somewhat spy on you

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Both coins have issues, but XMR has bigger ones. Syncing a whole blockchain that takes hours

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Run your own node guys!

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> syncing bitcoin also takes hours?

Finding a path in a graph when any edge in that graph can change at any moment is an unsolved problem

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Sorry I should have phrased it better. XMR has wallets like MyMonero that you have to share your viewkey with. Not vulnerable remote nodes, but it is still kinda custodial

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Days

especially when each node of that graph is not aware of the full graph

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> this is being addressed

it's an unsolved problem in computer science, and some think it's unsolvable in principle

it is solvable in some specific cases, but not in general

specific cases being certain types of graphs

like big centralized "hub" nodes - then lightning will work

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> with seraphis youll have view-keys that can "pre-sort" transactions which only partially impacts privacy compared to the full decrypt you currently have with viewkeys

but what's the point if it becomes centralized with a few "bank" nodes in it

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> id recommend jbermans monerokon 2023 talk

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> If your concerns were resolved you are going to switch?

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Or we going in Post Malone

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> never. you can only trust the math in some places, you cant trust the math to audit the supply though!

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Not switch but I was going to share XMR with my community of old heads. Many of us know about XMR but no one in my community have done research except me and I want to make them open to this coin, but I can't get myself to with these major issues.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> and i see these as major issues and your solutions laughable

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> From what I have seen, Seraphis and jamtis or whatever it is called has barely made any progress

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Fungibility is a major risk. I don't want my business investigated or funds frozen if a customer is shady and sends me something tainted

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i could say the same about lightning

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Lightning has progress you can see and test

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Point 2 is a major issue for btc, not xmr. Prs are only merged by core. Code is made pushed by devs by community funded devs

<b​asses:matrix.org> all exchanges that got hacked defillama.com/hacks

"Lightning has progress" when it was first released? How many years ago? I don't doubt it works right now, but it's fundamentally unreliable for reasons I mentioned above

It will either degrade to a few big nodes and everyone connecting to them, or it will degrade to a not working state

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> I already answered the solution for this point. There is zero incentive for the core to push poison code because all of the grants, supports and close monitoring by external organizations. All identities are also public and if bad code was pushed, these developers would get into trouble.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> it boils down to this: all of moneros issues can and will be fixed with time. bitcoin has some fundamental issues that need to be addressed, otherwise the chain is doomed to fail. monero is open to change, bitcoin has a cult that is against any and all change. good luck.

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> XMR devs are either frauds like fluffypony, lose funds from the CCS mysteriously and engage in suspicious activity in general

fluffy is not even a dev, stop this bullshit

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> MyMonero counts

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> So public devs cannot be co opted?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> mymonero is what wallet of satoshi is to bitcoin

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> but the people actually still hold their own keys

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> We are not against change. We are against changing when the chain is working. When are close to an issue, we address it.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i want to see that

define "working"

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Literally ignoring all the efforts with taproot, etc.

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Yep Post Malone “circles”

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> because last time there was an issue BCH was created and BTC didnt change

all I see in BTC is always full mempool and super high fees

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> taproot just enabled ordinals, its not even used for atomic swaps because they stand out so much lol

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> (taproot transactions)

also, even if lightning somehow starts working (via centralization) and everyone moves there, who will pay miners then? After a few halvings? Everyone on lightning, no fees on layer 0

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Lightning???

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Lol

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> lightning doesnt work

^

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Why have a blockchain, if you can bypass it

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Isnt it meant to be a transparent ledger? Why bypass it for “secure” tx?

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Having an extra layer is a non-issue

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> So whats the cost when you close the channel?

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> XMR also was considering layers with payment channels like PayMo

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Etherum has had success with layers and even though I despise that coin it works well

Lightning 1.6%, pathetic

If it really worked, everyone would be using it by now

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Yes, Bitcoin is liquid enough people can buy items directly without jumping hoops with giftcards

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Do you like btc ETFs?

and XMR is stable in top 3 in those CoinCards posts, a few times it was #1

and these are no "bad bad darknet" purchases

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Also is foundary still mining?

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> miningpoolstats.stream/bitcoin

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Yep

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Doesnt blackrock own them?

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> I don't mind institutional adoption as long as these people do not threaten decentralization. Institutions are smart and Hal Finney recognized their potential back in 2009

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> we have people explore different concepts

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> XMR has not solved this issue either:

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> miningpoolstats.stream/monero

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Centralized pools with botnets probably mining rule this coin

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> but i dont think anyone seriously considered these as viable

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> analysis has shown about 20% are botnets and that number is very stable

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> at least the miners of our chain are over 51% mining to KYC POOLS HAHAHAHAH

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> at least the miners of our chain arent over 51% mining to KYC POOLS HAHAHAHAH

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Nothing is wrong with this. KYC is better for miners as if they attempt a 51% attack, law enforcement can get involved.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> lmao

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> law enforcement can also... enforce the law and force miners to censor their blocks

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Does btc have something similar to p2pool?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> p2pool was originally a bitcoin pool

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Rip eth

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> it was never adopted because with asics youd just run your own pool

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> or apparently join a kyc pool

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Have you used xmr ?

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> From what I can gather so far, BTC has these weaknesses:

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> - Lightning is broken

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> - Transactions are slow and have high fees

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> - NGU ruins the community

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> - Miners are KYC and there is little privacy unless you make an effort

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> XMR has these weaknesses:

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> - Liquidity is broken. It doesn't exist unless you go through suspicious pathways and this is not ideal for a person with a large sum of money. You have to place trust in a P2P exchange, CEX are better

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> - Threat of governments. Yes you can move to another country, but I am not doing that if I can use BTC freely. Governments are not bad and are necessary.

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> - Suspicious dev team.

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> - Circular economy pipe dream.

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> - Promises of updates like Seraphis without any results but a research paper. BTC has more going on in the background, this is why Seth moved over.

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Who is the sus dev team

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> No

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Have you forgotten about what recently happened to the Monero fund?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> bitcoin is literally going to die because you guys will have a bloody war about your set-in-stone 21 million number

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Yeah we made interest

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> And not a dev

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> monero liqudity will be handled by serai

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> So who is sus dev

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Midi is lead dev here

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> We back up to google drive

<k​arano:poddery.com> What do you mean by seth moved over ?

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> I said all the developers are suspicious by nature. None of them are public except for fluffy fraud and I understand he is no longer a dev but he scarred the reputation for this coin.

<k​arano:poddery.com> He wasn't working on xmr as a dev

<k​arano:poddery.com> He wasn't working on xmr as a dev , i think

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Reminds me of thankful_for_today

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Sith lord is educating btc people

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Monero trojan horse

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Rip people using anon networks

if you want "trusted" devs you're getting it backwards

the point is to never trust anyone and always check

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Yep

this is why we had Bulletproofs' audit, RandomX audit and a few more audits

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Trust never verify

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> this discussion is not going anywher

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> this discussion is not going anywhere

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> might as well drop the killer argument

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…matrix.org/faBluvhgUDEmgvayyuqtQaff

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Post Malone

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Yest

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Do you have fuzzies?

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> You should read "Reflections on trusting trust"

I read it before, multiple times

This is where all the "reproducible builds" thing comes from

Monero has reproducible builds btw

and on the way to have bootstrappable builds soon

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> It doesn't matter if XMR has reproducible builds if you can't trust your propriety hardware

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> Yes he was a long time ago.

Monero has RISC-V binaries and you can run it on RISC-V if you fancy so

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> In that case Bitcoin is compromised as well

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> I didn't know that. Cool.

<k​arano:poddery.com> Why do bitcoiners use coin-join then 😂

<k​arano:poddery.com> They don't like transacting without it ?

oh wait, 0.18.3.1 doesn't have RISC-V. Didn't we add RISC-V support recently?

<k​arano:poddery.com> Just sending btc p2p ?

Probably the next release will have them

yes we do have it now: github.com/monero-project/monero/ac…ons/runs/8153053935/job/22283684493

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> I'm tired of arguing. It seems like this discussion went nowhere. I understand your arguments and BTC is not perfect but constantly bashing the coin because of a small portion of the community that is loud is unfair. Main point I can give is that BTC is open to new ideas. We will implement many of the features XMR have I imagine in the future when it is appropriate so the issues w<clipped message>

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> e have right now will not continue forever.

<w​izbiz:matrix.org> For my initial concerns, I have to admit my second point was answered perfectly after I read back. Liquidity and regulation is still an issue and I don't think this will ever get solved. Don't get your hopes up for Haveno and Serai as I did too way back in the day for other BTC DEX and these failed. Goodbye.

You're delusional, BTC won't implement any crucial features like tail emission and dynamic blocks

because politics

at best, you'll just get another forked coin that calls themselves BTC

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> What happned

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> I left and they rq

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Also i’ve seen that person here before

<d​ezinfik:matrix.org> we are early

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> It's cute that he really thinks Bitcoin will just add tail emission

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> And especially that the banks will help keep it alive

Anyone who suggests that in Bitcoin echo chambers, will have mere seconds to live before banned

<s​atoshi:matrix.harm0ny.is> I got 4 pings from this room for some reason 🤔

<s​atoshi:matrix.harm0ny.is> Oh nvm, name was referenced by wizbiz

no wonder you get pings with such name :D

<s​atoshi:matrix.harm0ny.is> I'd expect it from a BTC room, not from a Monero one

<s​atoshi:matrix.harm0ny.is> But that guy looks like a BTC shill

<s​atoshi:matrix.harm0ny.is> > Threat of governments. Yes you can move to another country, but I am not doing that if I can use BTC freely. Governments are not bad and are necessary.

<s​atoshi:matrix.harm0ny.is> Yikes

<s​atoshi:matrix.harm0ny.is> Fed shill too

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Isnt that what ripple is?

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Wiz already had there mind made up

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> The dot points they listed where antagonistic

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Saying sus devs and then saying organisations and corporations keep public btc core honest is a joke

honest* (with an asterisk)

terms and conditions apply

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> See my prediction was true

<s​atoshi:matrix.harm0ny.is> How could we possibly keep the world honest without BlackRock, the Rockefellers, and Bill Gates?

<t​oubtoub:matrix.org> are maxis getting smarter? this maxi knew lots about monero and didn't use dumb arguments like muh inflation bug. weird

<h​elasse:linarphy.net> As a monero maximalist (preparing for a recession), i still encounter some "infinite inflation" arguments when explaining how monero works

<t​oubtoub:matrix.org> methinks that maxi was a glowie

<t​oubtoub:matrix.org> it makes no sense to have cognitive dissonance of that level

<t​oubtoub:matrix.org> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…matrix.org/UOnUyvXvNDreyiROKRjeiIzc

<s​atoshi:matrix.harm0ny.is> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…harm0ny.is/pmEyUSQDOSiEgMuSkJSgmRDq

<t​oubtoub:matrix.org> this part gave it away - "Not switch but I was going to share XMR with my community of old heads. Many of us know about XMR but no one in my community have done research except me and I want to make them open to this coin, but I can't get myself to with these major issues."

<t​oubtoub:matrix.org> the community of old heads is the fed

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Also they have never used monero

<t​oubtoub:matrix.org> super sus

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> But we have used btc and know its issues

<t​oubtoub:matrix.org> how can you know about seraphis and fluffy but not use xmr wtf

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Always one way with these people

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Anyways no point beating a dead pet rock

<s​atoshi:matrix.harm0ny.is> Don't weep for the stupid, you'll be crying all day

<s​atoshi:matrix.harm0ny.is> Also I'm not against using other coins, but at gotta wash'em with Monero first. Monero purifies .

<s​atoshi:matrix.harm0ny.is> Also I'm not against using other coins, but gotta wash'em with Monero first. Monero purifies .

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Monero condom

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> toubtoub:

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i cant join your room

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> hahahaha

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> "Look. I am not going to expose information about myself ..."

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> hahahaha

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> >hey i want to do some anonymous work on monero

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> "haha get out of here"

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> really?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> sure, someone with zero history is unlikely to get a ccs through but i dont see the problem with creating a bounty

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> Interestingband, u eating shrooms for breakfast, or?

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> Maybe weed gummies

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> Toutoub > @ofrnxmr:monero.social

<s​nowman:tetaneutral.net> Probably just another federal public servant putting his hours in to undermine this am

In that case.. interestingband > @ofrnxmr:monero.social

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> or

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> you're missing the context

<l​akshmana:matrix.org> If the Monero blockchain is hidden how do we verify the amount of coins that currently exist?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> lakshmana: moneroinflation.com

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> TLDR: Math.

<l​akshmana:matrix.org> I felt stupid asking thank you for not trolling me and actually providing information

Also

The node itself keeps track of the emission

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> its a valid question :)

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> in that case it's more like someone with very negative history using newly created nickname

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> rather than zero history

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> you mean like you?

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> i have very positive history, not like me

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> (i don't takl in dm)

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> s/takl/talk/

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> why not

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> Ofrnxmr cant talk in this room

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> But i see something about a ccs

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> matrix.to/#/!WzzKmkfUkXPHFERgvm:mat…g&via=monero.social&via=libera.chat

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> This one is also funny

<m​onero77:matrix.org> hello everyone please i am a newbie can someone give me the best article on how to mine my first monero and in the most efficient way, also is it advisable i mine with my alienware m15 r7 or i get a desktop computer for this purpose

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> whym, you're literally talking here rn

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> * wdym

<s​lstmd:monero.social> he is not mj if that's what you are suspecting

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> This account is notofrnxmr and has connectivity issues.

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> and your proof ?

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> it looks like totally opposite so far

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> i can prove it

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> ofrnxmr is going to dm you

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> proof ?

<s​lstmd:monero.social> for example he debugged a compiler bug, something mj would have never done

<s​lstmd:monero.social> but generally different writing style, he works on different parts of the codebase, also more dedicated

<s​lstmd:monero.social> haven't seen any evidence or clues linking them together. maybe you have something to prove me otherwise?

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> 😁😁😆

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> AI model

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> specifically to detect sockpuppets

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> " he works on different parts of the codebase " no

<s​lstmd:monero.social> he is also familiar with lmdb which mj never touched

<s​lstmd:monero.social> anyway, i'm not going to argue about it. if i had the slightest doubt that he is mj i would have spoken out.

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> the last activity of old nickname is within 1-2months of appearence of new nickname

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> monero-project/monero #9181

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> Any input on this?

<0​xfffc:matrix.org> We need to get it merged. Any input / feedback / comments appreciated.

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> " ... but generally different writing style ... " no

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> "... if i had the slightest doubt that he is mj i would have spoken out." unlikely

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> how many coincidences between old one ond new one would be sufficient to confirm it ?

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> which compiler bug ?

<i​nterestingband:matrix.org> "... he is also familiar with lmdb which mj never touched" to what extent familiar ?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…matrix.org/vTbnbsGRhlxvFfLUqxCMXzUh

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> why is the data-in rate such a smooth curve?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> does this mean someone pumped out all the transactions at once and then started slowing down?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> or is this completely unrelated to transactions?

speaking of transactions: p2pool.io/explorer/txpool - 2400+ transactions, 95% of them are 1in/2out

this is irregular

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> is there any real reason to do it like this if its an exchange?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> they could just send 1->100 if they wanted a lot of outputs, right?

isnt 1in/2out like every tx ever? or are you not counting the return change?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> at this rate we'll hit 100k tx

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> 1/16

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> what about unrestricted rpc?

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> 1/2 could verywell be just rechurning tge same output repeatedly

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> thats still a lot of outputs

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> Well, its obvious that at least someone has them

<s​nowman:tetaneutral.net> Is it the nostr guy

<s​nowman:tetaneutral.net> Didn’t he say he was going to spam xmr

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> 1/16 spam = lots of outputs

oh no please dont spam the network and give me higher fees

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> it just gives miners more money

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> fees should actually go down

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> at least over the longer term

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> the only real downside is that it takes up more node storage

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> ill gladly pay a GB to see 100k tx per day haha

my node is on a 4tb drive i got lots of space

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> Lots of outputs = what you need for 1/2 churn spam

Regular wallet usage usually creates 2/2 transactions

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> heres the trick

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> if this an attack, like spackle said, its not well thought out

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> 906000

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> 90600

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Guess we got a fitting all time high

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Bitcoin got fiat price and we got transactions

1/2 transactions are really common because somebody withdraws from exchange to new wallet then spends

not saying the recent activity isn't sus, just saying

or just consolidating to a single output before spending i.e. a "churn" of sorts

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> why am i reading the backlog from a "grin" shill

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> "its not mj because he fixed something" lollolol

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> interestingband send luigi a payout address / comment on the proposal already repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/204 thanks

<y​asabi:matrix.org> why is "grin" in quotations, it's not secretly called "frown" :P

"privacy is the enemy of good" lol

<y​asabi:matrix.org> see lots of people saying this is a flood attack atm but i don't buy it, seems more likely Monero got spotlight with the delisting and now ppl are selling shitcoins that are pumping to get into XMR

#monero-offtopic for any grin chats

<y​asabi:matrix.org> if you think XMR privacy is perfect i got some bad news for you fam...

nobody thinks that

lol

stop reviewing all open PR's... its done

<y​asabi:matrix.org> bake em away toys!

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> interestingband they may be repurposed... perhaps to fund greek translations for monero gui, i dont know

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> Transaction pool (no of txs: 2464, size: 4132.67 kB, updated every 5 seconds)

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> is there some kind of ongoing spam attack ?

people using monero = spam. hodl only

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> a sudden spike in transactions ?

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> maybe Justin needs to use his chain analysis to see if these outputs being spent are connected

devs should turn off the privacy feature so they can see why people are using monero

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> any idea where did this spike came from ? have you see monero being adopted somewhere just recently ?

binance is being forced to liquidate

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> binance is doing 1/2 txs ?

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> shouldnt it be 1/16

why should it be anything

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> bcoz 20min conf

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> unlock time

maybe these tx are binance going into the market to buy all since they were playing FRB games and cant cover the outflows

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> you think binance is buying in small amounts ? they could wipe out entire balance of instant exchangers if they want

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> But they delisted it!

when youre forced to buy immediately you dont get to be choosy

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> he thinks binance is buying in bits to pay for withdrawals

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> yah and bulk buy is easier

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> Youd see 140/2 tx uif binance was buying

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Maybe cz exit plan

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> that is possible

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> who is our resident output analyzing expert? maybe he/she can analyze what is going on in last few days

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Ruck is our resident trivia night mc

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> Rucknium can you look into it when you have some time

what if you just like myob

the network is not crashing

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> I will let cloudflare know where under attack?

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> well half of the decoys are recent spent outputs, so it hurst

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> hurts*

people using monero hurts monero. got it

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> most of them using 1/2 ? dont know why you are so worried if it gets analysed

dont know why you are so obsessed with deanonymizing a crypto meant to be anonymous. go chase bitcoin

we're pushing the median block size limit up, that's exciting

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> well if its going to reduce decoys to half, then i am worried

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Bitcorn ~-10% lol

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> That was I was thinking, it keep going dewn since today, That could explain "people dumping btc to XMR)

if you decrease avg input size from 2 to 1 but then do 2x as many tx, you have not reduced decoys to half

the output selection algo is supposed to select more recent outputs so pretty sure that's fine and expected

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> doesnt make sense when xmr price keeps dipping

Hello, I am a PhD conspiracy theorist. Type your question.

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> I guess not everyone is taking provit into XMR, i'm sure a bit part go into others scams (ETH) and USD*).

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> yes, thats changed recently & if its a spam attack and the outputs are from same entity then privacy reduces

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> BTC dumped 10.06

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> XMR gained 4.36 vs BTC

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> ETH gained 5.64 vs BTC

<r​ucknium:monero.social> pndxmr: My computing resources are occupied at the moment. I can put the recent tx volume increase on the MRL meeting agenda for tomorrow.

<a​js_:matrix.org> Rucknium: was there any insights from the previous influx of txs

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> So my thinking is as simple as that

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Massive XMR TX uptick the same day corn dump 11%(so far)

okay but the price ain't move

<r​ucknium:monero.social> ajs_: In mid December? There was an increase in the share of outputs that were spent quickly after being released from the 10 block lock. IMHO, that suggested spam.

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> if XMR is to go up, it might so it after BTC settle and rest

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Thing is, XMR is fighting again BTC, not USD.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> You can see our "Fingerprinting a Flood" analysis of the 2021 tx volume anomaly ( mitchellpkt.medium.com/fingerprinti…ero-transaction-volume-a19cbf41ce60 ) "Question 2(b): Is the source one or more entities? Analyzing spend time distributions"

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> there was spike yesterday too

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> It's why I have indicator for bitcoin, based on Monero. (I use Monero price action to trade bitcoin and it work well)

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Often the "Monero indicator" Trigger a day before BTC big move.

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Note that do not use the monero rate of TXing for that Indicator... yet.

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> -12%.. it continue lol

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> Well, decoys are already bad

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> 16 is a mythical creature

<o​frnxmr:agoradesk.com> Effective ringsize of 16* is a mythical creature

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> indeed and dont know why ppl didnt reject using half recent ouputs lol

<r​ucknium:monero.social> The decoy selection algorithm should match the real spend age distribution as closely as possible. The current DSA is based on the analysis of Moser et al. (2018) that used de-anonymized Monero txs to measure the real spend age distribution. Most spent outputs are young. That's true for Monero, BTC, LTC, BCH, and DOGE.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> If people rejected using recent outputs, then they would be rejecting the suggestions of a half dozen research papers

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> Yes, but those chains dont use decoys

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> With single entity spam attack, our decoys are now actually halved

<r​ucknium:monero.social> There is higher risk for users to use a DSA that doesn't match the real spend age distribution well.

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> If we have a emergency fork to increase ringsize to say 24, would we still keep half of the decoys from recent outputs ?

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Probably yes. Just putting in many old outputs in the DSA would cause an adversary to just ignore them since they are unlikely to be the real spend.

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> so if we are spending a recent output right now, and majority of its spam; we have effective zero privacy ?

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Most decoys you are going to use are not from "the last 48 hours" right...

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Say that an adversary owns half of all recent outputs. Then effective ring size is cut in about half. Effective ring size would be 8. That's not zero privacy

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Over half of outputs that the DSA selects are from the most recent 72 hours.

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> what if its 80-90% of outputs from same bad actor ?

<r​ucknium:monero.social> You can see what 5 research papers say about matching the real spend age distribution on the first page of github.com/Rucknium/OSPEAD/blob/mai…pecified-Estimation-Plan-PUBLIC.pdf

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> Doesnt answer my question though, if attacker owns 80-90% of recent outputs what would be effective ringsize ?

<r​ucknium:monero.social> 80-90% would be a major problem for user privacy

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> so we should all now start spamming and keep it down to 50%

<y​asabi:matrix.org> panic is a surefire way to make things worse no matter what is actually going on

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> it would subside after a few days, but we need to work on fixing things

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> FCMP isnt coming anytime soon

send all your monero to the banmonero.com black hole

<r​ucknium:monero.social> With 15 decoys, if an adversary controls 90% of outputs, then on average 1.5 of the 15 decoys would be not controlled by the adversary. So an adversary would have reduced average effective ring size to 2.5

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> sorry i dont transact

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> thank you :)

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> Responding to spam with spam seems like a nasty feedback loop.

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> Especially if it isn't coordinated. Who knows, maybe people are already doing it.

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> what kind of decoy selection would help in such cases ?

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Problem is that you can know it's spam,

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> If you send churn thousands of output then you rechurn them after 20 min then you rechurn them after 20 min...

<r​ucknium:monero.social> A DSA that avoids the spam somehow. That's very difficult because it's a moving target.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> More reading: monero-project/research-lab #109 reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/12kv5m…acy_impact_of_mordinals_monero_nfts

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> So we can be sitting ducks ?

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Yes. One of the first MRL research bulletins analyzed this issue. It is not new

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> Any idea if FCPM is actually doable with seraphis or its just on paper for now

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Actually the first MRL bulletin: "A Note on Chain Reactions in Traceability in CryptoNote 2.0" getmonero.org/resources/research-lab/pubs/MRL-0001.pdf

<r​ucknium:monero.social> People who are working on it think that FCMP can be used with Seraphis. I'm not a cryptographer, so I can't give you more of an opinion on that.

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> I will wait for tomorrow's MRL meeting to read your analysis of current spam attack

<r​ucknium:monero.social> I don't think I will have an analysis there. That agenda item will be to decide if analyzing it should be a priority.

Im going to wait for pndxmr to create a bounty bounties.monero.social

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> bounty for dsa or just analysis of spam attack or fcmp

You know best

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> Throwing out some lazy/amateur napkin math on the DSA: wolframalpha.com/input?i=gamma+distribution+19.28%2C%281%2F1.61%29

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> We can expect ~50% of all decoys to be selected from the last 1.5 days

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> ~60% from the last 3 days

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> ~75% from the last 10 days

<p​ndxmr:matrix.org> okay, i went with dsa for now as FCPM is a long shot

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