<t​esttank:matrix.org> I’ve been watching monero price movements for like 6 months, and i’ve noticed that during asian market hours it goes up 70% of the time, while during eu/us timezones it goes down most of the time

<t​esttank:matrix.org> Why are asians stacking monero???

<t​esttank:matrix.org> I’ve been watching monero price movements for like 6 months, and i’ve noticed that during asian market hours it goes up 70% of the time, while during eu/us timezones it goes down, most of the time.

<s​herry:unredacted.org> if you need some high level hosting privacy, best choice is setting on home with you hands

<s​herry:unredacted.org> online hosting they can easily dump your VPS memory and send to police

<s​herry:unredacted.org> lots of people, lol

<s​herry:unredacted.org> an interesting fact: i used to be keen on using vpn based on china, because using china ip address, no geo ads on google/twitter based services

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> it good shilled on taiwanese TV recently xcancel.com/spirobel/status/1927937900408189374 was a very in depth report. for some reason the english speaking monero sphere didnt pay much attention

<m​odul8:matrix.org> payment processors oh my. youtube.com/watch?v=Y5BsyS_WE1k

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Arent asians smarter than westerners? This would be the reason

its becuase of their education system and their culture.

That has insane drawbacks though. I don't like some of the Western education systems where they'd choose comfort over ambition, but how, say, China does that is just unacceptable. We have something like that too - the unified state exams that has caused quite a few s******s.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> S******s is what

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Suicides?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Sextings :D

I didnt say their education system was good. Its horrible. Its just that children are so much forced onto compliance and "being smart" that they are academically, overall smarter than most westerners.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> smart ppl choose monero

Th former, it's just awkward.

kenny44, yeah, but at what price. Also I got the impression that they get obedient as well.

But at what price? Children are suicidal. The system breeds hikikimoris.

People are anti social.

Especially at japan.

<s​herry:unredacted.org> i know a south korea student overstressed and self needle pen into her eye ball, it's scared me

We don't have it quite to the same extent, but there is one exam that decides everything.

Even we have children losing their lives over it every year, can't even think about how Chinese one is.

<s​herry:unredacted.org> C_J_K kids all overstressed on exam

Its also sad because they dont neccesarily gain much from it. The onces who succed in school become obedient workers, mostly.

ones*

<s​herry:unredacted.org> :(

It thankfully wasn't as much of a problem for us, thanks to the teachers who were chill about it. Maybe it's just us being in a strong school, though, because I know some people complain it's impossible to pass just with school lessons, so a lot hire tutors.

Also every year there's a story of it being inconsistent in difficulty across regions. And certain regions have suspiciously many 100/100.

Also the fact that the most eastern regions leak the papers early despite all prcautions

Did yuy guys know this brilliant mind called Mark Zuckerberg spent over 45 billion dollars on this stupid platform called Horizon Worlds that no one even usess?

is that even alive

You could have provided clean drinkable water for literally everyone in this planet. Saved tens of millions of lifes. Prohibited diseases from developing. But no.

they created this moneypit called the metaverse

no one even fucking uses it its so funny

that does not make everyone around you look uncanny so that you seem better in comparison

Yeah it dosent benefit him neccesarily but it sure would have been a much better investment in humanity.

You could buy a controlling stake in a major defense contractor and build your own private army of autonomous drones. But he created roblox without legs.

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> vrchat is better

Yeah. Can you be Sans The Skeleton, Heavy Weapons Guy or Fredbear in Zucc's version?

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> NO!

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> vrchat has monerochan avatar and xmr group lmao

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…matrix.org/JZiOCZyGwCUXMqeGxjWuSjXZ

ah yes, the maginficent m_not_found, my second favorite avatar

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> .

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> stop living in the past and hop on matrix

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> okay. eye bee bee dot co. ibb.co/LLPybcZ

I do have it actually, but prefer not to be in big rooms because it stores th entire history on EVERY participating server. I can easily clean it by reinstalling, but would prefer to do it rarer. There are apparently commands for cleaning up old messages, but for media those can delee avatars as well, for example.

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> whats up with storing old history

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> too much disk usage? lol

I mean yeah, it adds up, not like my server's disk is that big.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> It makes no sense to keep history that nobody is looking at

<e​ddie:oblak.be> a cleanup once in a wile works wonders :-)

Also XMPP doesn't have this either, only storing the history on the "hosting" server and allowing to set a limit for that.

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> "nobody is looking at" don't you ever scroll up to see old messages sent before? xd

I can sometimes look up a specific old message, but it's really rare. My IRC client doesn't keep logs either, I just manually save some interesting discussions.

I prefer not to hoard data that I likely wouldn't be using afterwards.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> not like 5 years back

<e​ddie:oblak.be> usually I delete everything older than 6 months

<s​herry:unredacted.org> my df -h: /dev/mapper/root 107G 5.7G 101G 5% /

<s​herry:unredacted.org> without multimedia things store on disk, very low disk usage on my laptop

How do you not store multimedia? I assumed it was necessary for it to display.

<s​herry:unredacted.org> I'm no longer use X11/wayland based software for a heck of loooong time, i'm using framebuffer term with UTF-8 drawing

<s​herry:unredacted.org> maybe you have fancy display on your environment, but that's my view: paste.c-net.org/MiekeKiddin

Nah I like my GUI.

CLI-exclusive is for the server.

<s​herry:unredacted.org> no, server is also deeply depends on X11 libs lol

<e​ddie:oblak.be> I am exploring that EU ban a bit.. Seems that it's only targeted at financial institutions and service providers, not at individual users

<e​ddie:oblak.be> They kind of miss the point a bit, it'll be illegal for institutions to offer anonymous accounts...

<e​ddie:oblak.be> But monero people usually don't use institutions for to handle their wallet 🤦‍♂️

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> "financial institutions and service providers"

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> rip mining pools D:

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> they provide xmr based on a mining algorithm (service provider)

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> they provide xmr based on a mining payout algorithm (service provider)

thanks this is terrifying

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Just locate mining mining pool outside the EU

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> is russia in the eu (hashvault)

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> no :DDDDD

<e​ddie:oblak.be> no russia is not in the eu 🤦‍♂️ a

<e​ddie:oblak.be> no russia is not in the eu 🤦‍♂️

<e​ddie:oblak.be> it's partly in europe, that's not the same thing

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> .

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> ok i'll apt remove myself ;-;

<b​asses:matrix.org> how is the monero situation in vietnam?

<e​ddie:oblak.be> XMR will continue to be legal in the UK

<e​ddie:oblak.be> *Legal to trade and hold; illegal as a payment tool*

<e​ddie:oblak.be> according to wikipedia

<e​ddie:oblak.be> that's for all crypto though, not xmr specifically

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> well

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> paying is trading right

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> trade currency for product

<w​ritemarble:matrix.org> The Yookay is authoritarian government now

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Now, I think EU will just stimulate other jurisdictions to take leadership on XMR mining

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Like China banned (BTC) mining, so US took over

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> i will ALWAYS be #1 in xmr mining >.<

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Atomic swaps and self custody and mining from the UK, we'll be fine :D

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> step one: buy xmr vpn

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> step 2: vpn to country where thats allowed

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> step 3: mine xmr anonymously

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> its not like you'll miss that much blocks lol

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> and totally no stale shares

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> those never happen :3

<e​ddie:oblak.be> indeed

<e​ddie:oblak.be> I don't think mining itself will be illegal as an individual

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> mullvad is 5eur a month

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> everyone earns more than that in xmr mining

<e​ddie:oblak.be> I wonder what will happen to Mullvad and things like that, should they stop accepting XMR?

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Will Monerokon have to move outside UK?

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Will Monerokon have to move outside EU?

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> virtual meeting(tm)

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> im gonna get depresso if that happens >..<

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Yeah, we need to bribe more politicians so they work in favor not against XMR

<17lifers:matrix.org> mullvad is 5eur a month <- everybody gangsta until Sweden and wherever they have servers at ban it as well

<e​ddie:oblak.be> I would set up my business in Switzerland, which is not part of the EU and much more friendly towards crypto

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> ok, you begin :3

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> oh no, they'll steal my beloved amsterdam server

<e​ddie:oblak.be> next time Monerokon in Geneva or Lausanne

<e​ddie:oblak.be> very good article on the matter: ryo.news/europes-privacy-coin-ban-i…ernatives-and-compliance-strategies

<e​ddie:oblak.be> *It's also worth noting that customer due diligence will become mandatory for all crypto transactions over €1,000. So, even if you're not using a privacy coin, the privacy window is narrowing.*

is there a trusted staking service for monero ?

by staking I mean as in investment/liquidity provision

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> make payments in chunks of 999 euros

YES

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> HELL YEAH

And list everything by "The Purchase", "The Purchase Part 2", "The Purchase DLC"

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> soon we'll get scripts to pay a certain large value in chunks below 1000 eur

XD

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> and thats how we have beaten the government :3

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Yeah, well the hypocrisy is appalling. Not to long ago a family member was scammed for more than 100k in euros. The bank just let the person wire the money (digitally) without asking questions. All fiat money where AML already applies.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Basically the banker was in on the scam

Also money mules go brr

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Also, let's not mention that all the EU politicians are granted a couple of thousand euros each month to cover expenses, that they don't have to declare

<e​ddie:oblak.be> The biggest crooks are those lawmakers and bankers themselves, makes my blood boil.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> They all misappropriate funds on a daily basis, hardly any questions asked

<s​bt:nope.chat> Fake fiat funds. Yes, corruption is at it's peak with these crooks.

<s​bt:nope.chat> Way to go europoor. 1k is not a big amount at all.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Indeed. At the moment allowed cash transactions are way higher

<s​bt:nope.chat> How do they plan on monitoring the transactions exactly?

<e​ddie:oblak.be> They will create a new institution 🤷‍♂️

<s​bt:nope.chat> Wouldn't it violate their pretentious privacy laws?

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Which will cost the taxpayer millions

<e​ddie:oblak.be> It will be based in Frankfurt

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Yes it's very contradictory

<s​bt:nope.chat> The most crooked govt. Wonderful.

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> when will gdpr be reversed

<e​ddie:oblak.be> But fiat wise, there is no financial privacy in the EU

<s​bt:nope.chat> How are people OK with this? And why is taler payment getting more traction?

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Well, users don't understand or care until it's to late

<e​ddie:oblak.be> First, Monero is the only relevant privacy coin

<e​ddie:oblak.be> nobody uses zcash

<s​bt:nope.chat> Normies are the problem. Unfortunately, they comprise of majority population.

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> the twitter cryptobros do

<e​ddie:oblak.be> and still the adoption of monero is very small compared to cash money

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> "hold zec its gonna punmp up fast!!!"

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> "hold zec its gonna pump up fast!!!"

<s​bt:nope.chat> I agree. But this taler payment system is being used in swiss.

I don't think Monero's adoption should be huge to begin with - it's only for things that can't be paid with cash, like purely digital services.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> I think it's only 10% of the population that has crypto in some way

<s​bt:nope.chat> It's ridiculous to call it private or secure because it's still controlled by banks.

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> "only for things that cant be paid with cash" => xmrbazaar.com

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> And in most EU countries they are simply doing it for ALL transactions. Even under 1,000

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> Even though I believe, MiCA only mandates over 1,000. I may be mistaken though.

Taler is much better than cards, but it has no receiver privacy. And not very censorship-resistant. But it has a niche for sure.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Sure, but if privacy coins are banned in the EU, mullvad etc will have to stop accepting it, or relocate

17lifers, I know, but imo it's often more of a gimmick. I'd rather pay cash on reception for physical goods.

<s​bt:nope.chat> Exactly. The problem is "cryptobros" have essentially ruined the ideology of p2p currency.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> and then there will be additional laws for example that 3rd countries accepting XMR can not cater to EU residents

<s​bt:nope.chat> It's funded by govt and has no real privacy. They control it.

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> The way were going we are losing traditional cash by mid 2030s. Hope I am wrong.

Also, when would they remove the AI "art" on the top of the website? Disgusting first impression, even though the site is actually good.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Like the age verification check for porn sites has taken effect in France

sbt, YES

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> not many are willing to draw for xmr lol

<s​bt:nope.chat> How exactly can they even ban it? It's impossible.

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> its been centuries since the newest monerochan has been uploaded to safebooru.donmai.us

It's sad that people using it wrong are now what the whole tech is associated with :(

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Because if Mullvad says "we accept XMR", mullvad will face fines

<s​bt:nope.chat> I see. Penalise businesses you mean.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Exactly

beneficialsource, at least here thankfully I don't see that, in fact kind of the opposite. I sometimes see discounts or additional perks when paying in cash.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> The ban will not affect individual users

<e​ddie:oblak.be> but force the businesses to play police

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> They ban institutions using it so every use goes underground. CeXs can't offer it to clients in regions, etc.

<s​bt:nope.chat> Also the recent censorship from payment processors on steam and itch.

I wonder if XMR -> Visa gift card would be a viable option for people?..

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> IN FRANCE TOO!?!?!!? that shit getting insane fr

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> They'll have a much harder if not impossible time banning wallets, networks, etc.

<s​bt:nope.chat> I do this but not very often. It's a bandaid at best.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> It's EU law

<s​bt:nope.chat> Dex will prevail then.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> So memberstates can implement to a certain extent at their own pace

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Which is not what they are going to do

beneficialsource, here crypto is such a gray zone. People mostly trade p2p with various tricks to avoid getting their main bank accounts blocked. Never interacted with that because it's scary - what if the person you send money to turns out to have been considered a criminal?..

<e​ddie:oblak.be> They will just push it underground like you said

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> Yup. That's the goal

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> We need more user friendly DEX

<s​bt:nope.chat> Even converting to gift cards is still going to work, after banning CEX.

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> Something anybody can use with no knowledge

<s​bt:nope.chat> Retroswap is pretty good.

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> DEX has made big strides in recent years though

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> Yeah so is Trocador

<e​ddie:oblak.be> I mentioned it before

<s​bt:nope.chat> Yeah it's great.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> The community needs to make political "friends"

<s​bt:nope.chat> What do you mean draw?

<e​ddie:oblak.be> "vouch" I assume

<s​bt:nope.chat> What's their to vouch?

<e​ddie:oblak.be> We need people in Brussels talk to lawmakers convince them monero is not the problem.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Pirate party people are doing that a bit

Trocador is crypto to crypto, though. How would you even get the initial crypto?

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> Yeah but you're going against big powerful players.

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> And sadly currently the only people pushing any sort of adoption are the technooligarchs who do not want true DeFi. Just their own kingdoms. IMO

<s​bt:nope.chat> I don't think it's going to matter. Lawmakers should be completely bypassed. Cypherpunk ideology. Write liberating software, don't deal with politics.

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> everyone knows you get xmr by mining

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> everyone knows you get xmr by mining. thats the only acceptable way

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> Agreed.

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> Can't stop the signal.

<s​bt:nope.chat> You can't get much these days.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Cypherpunk is also politics

<e​ddie:oblak.be> It doesn't hurt to have friends on your side

<s​bt:nope.chat> No it's not. It's all about code.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> It's not the one or the other, in my opinion.

17lifters, just how realistic that is? Like, would that damage your computer?

<e​ddie:oblak.be> I'm not saying *don't* do cypherpunk, I say do both

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> Looks all of it is a scapegoat and excuse for more mass control and surveillance anyway.

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> Anyone with any critical thinking skills knows Monero or other DeX privacy DeFi platforms are no different or more dangerous than cash.

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> The only difference is I guess the possibility to transact and transfer large amounts wherever.

<s​bt:nope.chat> At least from what I have noticed, there is hardly any mention of politics. From early mail lists to early bitcointalk forums posts.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> I mean it is a political stance without talking politics

<s​bt:nope.chat> I guess you can say that.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> if you do cypherpunky stuff you take a stance

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> The best way to change the world friends is to make the old world obsolete.

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> The only way, perhaps.

<s​bt:nope.chat> Yes, mass surveillance is crazy these days. It's nuts how people are OK with it.

<s​bt:nope.chat> I am just surprised that they are not attacking Tor like they used to.

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> Circumvent politics, institutions, etc.

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> At the same time, try and show light to those willing. But in terms of DeFi, P2P economics. Its extremely powerful, ingrained interests. They will never be on our side.

beneficialsource, yeah! There is WAY more of a trail, and we don't know what vulnerabilities may be found in the future to untangle this _permanent_ record. I see it complementing cash.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> BlueyHealer, I don't understand 100% what you are saying

<e​ddie:oblak.be> In terms of "we don't know what vulnerabilities may be found in the future to untangle this permanent record" are you referring to a transparent blockchain?

<e​ddie:oblak.be> I found this, it's a very nice tracker of crypto regulations around the world: proeliumlaw.com/cryptocurrency-regulation-tracker

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…matrix.org/pDrpUkFFnUgHrsKSXMuityuX

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> and bookmarked

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> Personally I think a transparent blockchain is a very slippery slope.

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> Good for uses such as government books and finances, possibly democratization, voting, etc.

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> Absolutely dystopian potential for personal finances, personal records (ex healthcare), etc.

eddie, yeah, like being able to correlate real transactions from the record because the privacy measures turn out to be flawed.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> I agree. The EU seems to forget that transparency of blockchains like ETH and BTC is not just for them as "law enforcer" but for everyone.

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> Yeah that's what I assume you meant. Guess we have to just rely on good solid code, and tech. Which requires good solid idealist coders and builders. I can't speak too much for code as I am not really a programmer, but its complicated to fully trust anything.

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> The unknown variable of course is what technologies the "others" have that could break or circumvent "our" technology and code.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> If you would propose the EU to make all their transactions transparent by default they will have excuses to not do that.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> That's why some jurisdictions (like Switzerland, who does seem to understand crypto) allow XMR as long as you share a view-key with the tax authorities

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> I want to do an indepth dive into Ursula and the Von Der Leyen family economic history.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> She's really authoritarian

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> Yeah even just basic ministers with absolutely no nobility or "elite" connections would never allow that.

Also when using Monero, one shouldn't rely just on its tech, but also on best practices (like using your own node, not buying with KYC, etc).

<s​bt:nope.chat> Agreed. Basic opsec is necessary.

<s​bt:nope.chat> Even sticking with Tor + onion public nodes should be good enough.

At least if you're a regular Joe paying for Mullvad to avoid giving Reddit his ID)

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> people who accept kyc are dumb

<e​ddie:oblak.be> or have been tricked

<e​ddie:oblak.be> I once made an account at a CEX , that advertised "no kyc"

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Then when I bought coins there was no problem

<s​bt:nope.chat> Truly. People have given up on freedom and control

<e​ddie:oblak.be> but suddenly when I try to withdraw they required KYC

<e​ddie:oblak.be> That time I just left them keep the coins, it was a low amount

<e​ddie:oblak.be> That time I just let them keep the coins, it was a low amount

<s​bt:nope.chat> Tricked how? There is no trick. Using your fundamental brain power is not that hard. People just choose convenience over anything.

ye

<e​ddie:oblak.be> First CEXs were advised against not because of KYC but because of hacking risks

<e​ddie:oblak.be> The started to roll out gradually over time

<a​lexandre:uii.pt> some countries which make it legal say you have to pay taxes, but if it stays in crypto and is used in a circular economy you'll never have to pay taxes 🤣

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> thats what we all use xmr for amirite

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> lmao

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> Its the same story as always.

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> People think they have nothing to hide, don't value privacy and discretion, can get behind combating "terrorist financing and crime" and it goes that way, slow creeping until full on control and authoritarianism.

<s​bt:nope.chat> Also let's not forget, these popular exchanges carry out money laundering for cartels, pump and dump coins, etc. They are so tainted that I can't believe how people trust them.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> CEXs wouldn't require KYC if regulators also didn't require it.

So you'd have used your fundamental brain power to deduce "they say no kyc, but might be lying, so I'll assume they kyc me at some point" ? It's still tricked. Just because you're not paranoid enough does not absolve them of trickery.

<p​reland:monero.social> So.

<p​reland:monero.social> Anyone want to talk about the largest mining pool currently, or nah

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> enough of it

<s​bt:nope.chat> The largest mining pool is also a botnet?

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> not a botnet if users install it willingly

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> lol

Windows mines ?

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> What is it this time a new game from Epic Games?

<s​bt:nope.chat> Yes. Fuck the big brother. Never paying taxes.

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> 🤝🫂

<p​reland:monero.social> Ig not then

<p​reland:monero.social> Welp.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Oh shit they took over supportxmr 😅

<p​reland:monero.social> And it’s not peak this time. They mine 100% of the time on Saturdays.

<p​reland:monero.social> This isn’t movie magic; it’s the real deal.

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> If everyone could pay a fair 5-15% we could literally have highways, healthcare, garbage cleanup and more. A proper society.

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> But no, 50% for the masses, 0% for the elite.

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> Don't hate the evader, hate the game.

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> Unless the evaders are the ones that created the game.

<s​bt:nope.chat> Literally. 40-50% is absolutely nuts.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> damn

<s​bt:nope.chat> Where can I see the stats for this?

<e​ddie:oblak.be> miningpoolstats.stream/monero

<p​reland:monero.social> ^

<e​ddie:oblak.be> also couple thousand minders went missing

<e​ddie:oblak.be> it was 23k few days ago, nog 19k

<p​reland:monero.social> (It won’t show in the 1000 block because they just started a couple hours ago)

<e​ddie:oblak.be> it was 23k few days ago, now 19k

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> why is p2pool #6 :(

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> so bad

<e​ddie:oblak.be> at 30% there's not a big problem yet. But how long will it take to have the 51%

<a​lexandre:uii.pt> I'm fine with paying taxes, I'm not fine with governement (and payment processors) telling me where i can or cannot spend my money (and being able to snoop into everyone's accounts at will )

<s​bt:nope.chat> What's the reasoning behind it?

<e​ddie:oblak.be> they seem to spare computers during office hours

<a​lexandre:uii.pt> meanwhile my node is still syncing, 53k blocks left, almost there

<p​reland:monero.social> None. They are a loose cannon who have no interest in Monero

<s​bt:nope.chat> And them knowing what and where you spend it. They completely own you, in every way.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> I'm fine with paying some taxes

<e​ddie:oblak.be> but not if every year the govts deficit increases

<p​reland:monero.social> The head of their stuff just tweeted out that we should be letting markets know to up their confirmation times to 13 blocks “just in case”

<p​reland:monero.social> They also claim to come in peace btw.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> and they collect more taxes to fill an infinite gap

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> Yeah same. I am fine with taxes in a just, efficient, non corrupt society.

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> But also not half your earnings when the ones who run the society pay 0.

<s​bt:nope.chat> Why? 10 is default right?

<e​ddie:oblak.be> and when public spending goes 10x over budget because they can

<p​reland:monero.social> (He is tacitly implying that he will be harming consensus by selfish mining with the pool)

<p​reland:monero.social> Fun.

<s​bt:nope.chat> So a mining pool can arbitrarily change the blocks as per their wish?

<s​bt:nope.chat> Given the majority obviously.

<p​reland:monero.social> Sort of. Depends on how much hashrate they have

<s​bt:nope.chat> Which seems to be highest.

<p​reland:monero.social> The guy has stated that if they get 51% they will orphan all other blocks in order to force all miners onto their network “for the good of humanity”

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> I think a lot of this is more due to I efficiencies, corruption, and a debt based financial system. .

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> I did a quick study a couple years back for a large public welfare European state. If the entire population paid 15%, on everything including welfare, pensions, etc. The budget would have been almost double what it was that same year. But no, 50% and 0%.

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> Upside down.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> A 10-block blockchain re-organization is not feasible with their hashpower share. Not close.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> that's like my gut feeling, nice you researched it

<s​bt:nope.chat> That's crazy. Do they have legit CPU power or does it also comprise of infected machines?

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> Can someone ELI5 the pool thing for me, I don't quite have coder brain.

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> I get the gist of it though. But is there any leads to who is running the pool now? I guess its impossible to really know

<p​reland:monero.social> At what point do we get concerned?

<p​reland:monero.social> If they reach 51% (following worst case scenario where they only grow linear from here, they reach it in November; their growth is above linear), it will be too late

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Who was saying to start campaigning for more hash power?

<p​reland:monero.social> It’s probably legit, but it doesn’t matter.

<p​reland:monero.social> Even if it is entirely rented hashrate, they have shown intent to use said hashrate to artificially force honest miners to fill the gap.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> If we could collectively bring more hashpower online, that would be the best "counter attack"

<r​ucknium:monero.social> The only option without a hard fork to another consensus mechanism is for the Monero General Fund to rent hashpower, but that only goes so far.

<s​bt:nope.chat> Can the devs not kick out some of the percentage from the pool?

<b​eneficialsource:matrix.org> And till the general fund gets dried up and kills the project trying to compete economically with who knows what or who.

<p​reland:monero.social> Tbh my current fear is that the three “old guard” pools will freak out and start orphaning Qubic

<p​reland:monero.social> If that happens….Qubic is a very small player in a very large compute pool.

<p​reland:monero.social> It will definitely attract unwanted attention.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> How would that work?

<p​reland:monero.social> They 51% attack the blockchain (which they can do) in order to prevent Qubic from getting any blocks

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Orphaning Qubic's blocks would be disruptive, but not worst-case-scenario.

<s​bt:nope.chat> Why target qubic specifically?

<e​ddie:oblak.be> But that would need coordination between multiple large pools?

<p​reland:monero.social> Ofc not, but it’s starting to look more likely.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> The mining pools just re-program their block templates to ignore any blocks that Qubic broadcasts.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I'd prefer generalfund help ppl acquire permanant hashrate than to rent it

<p​reland:monero.social> Because Qubic has basically declared war on them

<e​ddie:oblak.be> ok only 3 or 4 pools, not so far fetched

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Anyway, qubic is 4gh away from 50%

<p​reland:monero.social> This (also hello)

<s​bt:nope.chat> Why are they fighting, what's the angle for both?

<e​ddie:oblak.be> It's like trolling I think

<s​bt:nope.chat> Wouldn't that be extremely expensive?

<e​ddie:oblak.be> The Cfb guy seems to have an unsatisfiable ego

<s​bt:nope.chat> Unfortunate.

<p​reland:monero.social> Qubic is just…..tbh idk anymore

<p​reland:monero.social> I think for them it’s a mix of both ego, “righteousness”, and a desire to obtain more compute for their little ai science project at any costs.

<p​reland:monero.social> Also they discovered that forsaking their own goals in order to mine Monero was more profitable than their own crap dad

<r​ucknium:monero.social> sbt: A mining pool (or coalition of mining pools) with greater than 50% total hashpower can just ignore blocks mined by other pools (and solo miners). Then, other non-mining nodes will end up following the majority chain. Therefore, the ignored pools get zero revenue from mining.

<p​reland:monero.social> CfB (main Qubic guy) wants to use that attack in order to force all miners onto Qubic.

<p​reland:monero.social> If they disagree with them…..they will never earn money again.

<s​bt:nope.chat> What if monero devs release a patch, kicking them out?

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Well if the pools want to orphan Qubic they have to decide on that before Qubic has the needed hashpower

<r​ucknium:monero.social> sbt: That cannot be done!

<e​ddie:oblak.be> But I favor bringing online more hash power

<r​ucknium:monero.social> How do you propose that?

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> xmrig as fast as possible!

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Not in a permissionless PoW consensus network.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> I am intending on doing that anyways ..

<s​bt:nope.chat> You're right. Impossible.

<p​reland:monero.social> It can technically be done, but it wouldn’t work

<s​bt:nope.chat> So only way up is fork?

<p​reland:monero.social> Or attrition

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> make hashrate graph go up or else >:c

<p​reland:monero.social> Tbh Qubic is an empire of sand; if we can survive long enough they will actually go away

<p​reland:monero.social> The issue is whether we can survive that long.

<s​bt:nope.chat> Have their been such tense scenarios between any previous mining pools?

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> empire of sand? just blow it away

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Not as far as I know

<e​ddie:oblak.be> But what do I know 😅

<p​reland:monero.social> There have been pools that have become close to 51%…..but none have ever been straight up “yeah uh we hate Monero we are just doing this for something something reasons”

<s​bt:nope.chat> Sorry I am not aware of this term.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Renting temp hardware to up the rate fast is not so difficult, but it is expensive

<p​reland:monero.social> Basically in a drawn out “conflict” which one of us wins

<p​reland:monero.social> Tbh I don’t personally think it is rented

<p​reland:monero.social> At least not in majority

<s​bt:nope.chat> So no one has yet crossed that mark right?

<e​ddie:oblak.be> I mean for monero as a "counter attack"

<p​reland:monero.social> The hashrate has gone up significantly since they started doing this; if it was renting pre-existing hashrate that wouldn’t be observed

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Best long term solution is keeping up the work for decentralizing mining efforts

<p​reland:monero.social> Ah ok

<e​ddie:oblak.be> 3 pools that can cooperate isn't ideal either

<p​reland:monero.social> Yeah, and 3 pools is just insurance.

<p​reland:monero.social> Most of the time, only support+nano is needed

<s​bt:nope.chat> Would it be not possible to entirely eliminate mining pool altogether?

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> ill do my best to get p2pool up. decentralization 4 lyfe.

<s​bt:nope.chat> Only individual mining is permitted.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> I used to mine with supportxmr but went to another one to support decentralization

<a​lexandre:uii.pt> how were you gonna enforce that?

<e​ddie:oblak.be> that's also not very good because it would make mining unattractive for small fish

<e​ddie:oblak.be> you then allow richer entities to take over the hashpower

<p​reland:monero.social> Maybe? Wownero made an attempt (ironic)

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> image.png

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> the squad go mining :3

<p​reland:monero.social> Tbh Wownero’s stuff would be enough to kill Qubic, since Qubic’s design requires all of the money to be pooled directly into one account (theirs, which they use to insta swap for tether, use it to buy their coin, and then “burn” it. Yep.)

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> just 52% if they 51% , its simple maths

<s​bt:nope.chat> They are swapping it with tether? Wow. That's like exchanging something of value with nothing.

<p​reland:monero.social> Ikr

<s​bt:nope.chat> Good question. I don't know how pools are identified.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Oh strange

<e​ddie:oblak.be> The Pool hashrate displayed on miningpoolstats.stream/monero can be different from the pool statistics a pool itself provides

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Wouldn't*

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Qubic already solomines monero

<e​longated:matrix.org> Belarus ccs ?

<p​reland:monero.social> But since it is made up of individual miners, wouldn’t they be able to intercept good shares for themselves with Wownero’s system?

<p​reland:monero.social> Tbh I don’t rly know how they implemented it, there’s a lot of noise online about it (and a lot of people that dislike the anti pool change)

<e​longated:matrix.org> It’s a centralised pool

<p​reland:monero.social> I was referring to Wownero’s anti pool stuff

<p​reland:monero.social> I also know that it isn’t perfect

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> 🧎‍♂️Hail Qubic

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> hail monerochan! she cute orang gurl >.<

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Why can I not post in monero pools 🤔?

<1​7lifers:matrix.org> cuz its abandoned

<e​ddie:oblak.be> oh ok, is there a new location somewhere?

has moved to rizon.net/chat

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> If the majority of mining power adopted p2pool (not if the individual miners did. Just if the largest pools participated in p2pool as a proxy for all their miners), p2pool could be forked to orphan non-p2pool blocks. Then, a hostile pool would have to be 51% of p2pool andddd we're back where we started.

I mean, at that point, large pools could just form an agreement to start blocking blocks. xD

That being said, I doubt any of us would agree to do so.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> The other option would be for existing miners to soft-fork to white listed miner addresses only, where they only whitelist themselves and p2pool per their perspective. Then if a hostile pool attempted to 51% p2pool to force their way in that way (orphaning p2pool shares which aren't theirs), the existing pools can attempt to follow the most inclusive p2pool.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Without a hard fork, or our own hash power subsidizes, the two cases Rucknium: mentioned, this is where the discussion would lead.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> I'm actually unsure how p2pool manages its state. I wonder if it could be 51%d/programmed to ignore best graphs if they're less inclusive (even if that introduces a bootstrapping problem where one might get stuck on the first graph they sync, never switching over to the graph the majority follow).

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Bridges or IRC only?

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Bridged or IRC only?

p2pool runs a subchain that contains the valid shares to be included in the next coinbase.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> I assumed it was its own PoW blockchain with uncle incorporation.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Anyways. IMO, the main question is will this mining pool (who has yet to demonstrate sustained hash power AFAIK) 's subsidies run out before they can gain the amount of hash power they want. If they can attack Monero, even temporarily, it'll probably increase their runway in a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's why we should be sure not to promote them.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Though I'll note their project seems to do nothing other than the idea of PoW (but good) and their current demonstration of that is doing Monero's PoW (which is bad, but them being able to do it is good), with the 'primary intended usecase' still being under development, horrifically ambiguous, and vague?

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Combined with how poor their documentation is, and the fact one of their pages is literally "how can I invest"? It just seems like this month's drama to largely ignore.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Sorry, it's literally "How to Invest in" *

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> I'll note I'd rather have three or four existing mining pools whitelist themselves than any megalomaniac whitelist themselves alone, though obviously, we shouldn't reduce the decentralization of block building.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Theyll need 4-5gh to have 51%

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> we've had botnets with 1-1.5gh

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Right, about twice what they've demonstrated in the past *for moments, not continuously* AFAIK.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Sustained for 12hr sprints

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Right. They have like 600 (reported) for like 30/60 seconds

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> One interesting solution would be a manager which only accepts blocks whose templates are the result of Intel SGX/another accepted TEE. A way to provide a proof that... that the blocks were mined at the claimed times? That the blocks didn't censor any TXs (though IO fundamentally can be censored unless the entire Monero node connection executes within a TEE :/ )

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Hm. We could encrypt Monero P2P traffic within a TEE and only accept blocks via TEE-originating connections of sustained duration. We could require we be able to send PINGs and receive PONGs. we could require an observer of the wire protocol is unable to distinguish between a PING (which they have to handle) and a TX propagation.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> With several months of work and 5 developers, it may be possible to get a degree of censorship resistance regardless of hash power if we force all miners/exchanges onto TEE-backed Monero nodes.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Malicious miners can still publish a censoring longer chain to non-TEE nodes, but it'd be worthless if major exchanges don't recognize it...

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> (Assuming you can suitably run a block template producer in TEE, maintain a indistinguishable connection, and solely advance storage forwards without rollbacks)

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Maybe a decent week or two hackathon using Cuprate's libraries? boog900:

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Ugh. It'd require nodes have tunnels directly to each other.

<b​oog900:monero.social> I don't really understand how you would prove a tx got censored without enforcing relay rules between nodes

<r​avfx:xmr.mx> arstechnica.com/information-technol…stored-in-intels-sgx-secure-enclave

<r​avfx:xmr.mx> ^ semi-random first link

<r​avfx:xmr.mx> But that say it all

<r​avfx:xmr.mx> \]

<r​avfx:xmr.mx> And if monero decide to rely on SGX, I dump it all

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> boog900: Picture a black box which runs a program continuously, with reasonable confidentiality, yet without extending to IO.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> You also require its storage cannot be rolled back and does propagate forwards.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> You embed a Monero verifier within the black box, and allow it to perform a shared key exchange to establish encryption keys for tunnels.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> You then have the tunnel protocol be indistinguishable to the message currently being sent, by only allowing fixed-length messages at a constant frequency.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> If a tunnel suffers interruptions, you drop the connection. It's only if the tunnel is well-maintained that it's handled.

<r​avfx:xmr.mx> Black box are fine as long as long as there secure.

<r​avfx:xmr.mx> SGX is not secure afaik and got exploited many time. I do not trust SGX. And also i'm not interrested into replaced my AMD shit for Intel shit, no thanks

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> The tunnel allows publishing blocks, asserting the block was produced while the tunnel was well-formed by the other end of the tunnel.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> The tunnels allows broadcasting transactions.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Finally, the program in the black box asserts it won't censor any TX received via the tunnel.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> One could create an opt-in higher-order network which accepts only some blocks: blocks which the black box attests include all received transactions and were mined while in a well-maintained state.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> If major service providers opted in, the only blockchain with value would be this blockchain which can only have its TXs censored upon TEE compromise.

<b​oog900:monero.social> if nodes have different relay rules this step would cause a net split, right?

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> If major miners opted in, this blockchain would additionally be the longest chain, and propagate to all nodes, even those without a TEE to assist itself.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> No? The attestation is simply that fair ordering (whatever prioritization is embedded within the program) was applied to all received transactions.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> The nodes don't have to have the same mempools.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> I believe the issue would be in bootstrapping? You'd have to require blocks to have been produced while the tunnel is well-maintained. Obviously, a freshly instantiated tunnel won't have any historical blocks produced while the tunnel is well-maintained.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> You probably can relax requirements to the tip block alone being received while the tunnel was maintained?

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> As any TXs historically censored than could have been included in the most recent block.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> TL;DR There's probably a solution if a majority of hash power uses TEEs to produce blocks and nodes include TEE-premised verification of the chain tip such that the ability to censor transactions is reliant on compromising a supported TEE.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> It's strictly an additional layer of security, at cost of requiring a library to verify TEE attestations be shipped within the Monero node, the majority of hash power produce block templates on a machine with a TEE, and there's sufficiently powerful TEEs.

<b​oog900:monero.social> but the node will not include txs received from the tunnel if a tx violates one of its relay rules.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Verifying attestations should be possible without any proprietary code however, and of reasonable complexity.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> boog900: The TEE would attest it fair ordered received transactions valid per the program it's attesting it's executing.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> kayabanerve: You really like TEEs don't you? :P

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> You're right the definition of validity of is dependent on the current relay rules. We can still have a program be configurable to the relay rules, and simply attest which relay rules it supports (regardless of configuration).

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Qubic verified hashpower share plots updated: gist.github.com/Rucknium/0873b10b6d36ff6c9d6f8f54107d16f7

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> As long as we don't add a configurable relay rule to whitelist only certain addresses, I don't see an issue.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Rucknium: I hate the fucks. That doesn't change if we can move the ability to censor to require a TEE compromise, that's probably an improvement to the status quo, especially when we have an entity threatening censorship?

<b​asses:matrix.org> xcancel.com/GrapheneOS/status/1815807569434214513#m

<b​asses:matrix.org> >TEE is essentially a poor man's secure element.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> To bring in another hated solution, hybrid PoW + PoS could defend against this, too.

<b​oog900:monero.social> For nodes running old versions we would need a way of sending them the code running on new nodes in a trusted way or we allow nodes to communicate their own code but then that allows people to provide code that censors txs, right?

<r​avfx:xmr.mx> It's been hacked a few time

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> I don't love the idea of requiring whoever builds a block template have tunnels with all other block template producers, and all downstream block recipients having tunnels with the producer. I also don't love moving the idea to produce templates to Intel/AMD/ARM CPUs from the last five years.

<r​avfx:xmr.mx> And I think intel needed like 20 round to get the shit included in linux kernel because the code was too trashy or somthing

<r​avfx:xmr.mx> They even removed SGX support for recent kernel

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Right now, a malicious miner can censor immediately. Under this proposal, only a malicious miner with a TEE compromise could. Yes, TEEs get compromised. I'm not saying this is a perfect solution.

<r​avfx:xmr.mx> They even removed SGX support for recent kernel / CPU

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> What I'm saying is we can limit the opportunity to censor from 24/7 to once every few months, until patches roll out.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> boog900: Block template production code would effectively require a hard fork to change.

<b​oog900:monero.social> but the code that accepts/rejects txs includes the relay rules

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> RavFX: Nodes wouldn't need a TEE to receive blocks and publish transactions.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> boog900: So those could only be changed upon hard fork?

<b​oog900:monero.social> ok yeah ^

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Like, the configurable values can be changed whenever. The rules which can be configured would be limited to hard forks.

<b​oog900:monero.social> we can no longer have relay rules :(

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Eh. It isn't enforcing relay rules. It's enforcing the range of relay rules.

<b​oog900:monero.social> or I guess in a kinda way

<b​oog900:monero.social> yeah

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Can: allow nodes to only require certain TX extra sizes. Cannot: require TXs be to a whitelisted address.

<b​oog900:monero.social> adding the tx-extra rule would have required a HF tho

<r​ucknium:monero.social> I don't know why you are talking about addresses, which don't appear on the blockchain.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> And even if a malicious entity had a majority of hash power, if major service providers don't follow the longest chain yet longest chain with a censor-free chain tip they've locally validated, there's no economic value to a 51% attack.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Enlighten me?

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Rucknium: Right now, I can add a rule to my Monero node to only accept TXs whose outputs I have the addresses and view keys for.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> It's not that addresses are on-chain. It's just addresses are the relevant concept on a human level.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> This same design also limits selfish mining to only upon a TEE compromise.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> I have no idea the would-be performance and how badly this screws with network topology though.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Mining pools can just sign blocks with their PGP keys if they want to coordinate a counter-attack, right?

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Non-qubic mining pools

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> It also does reduce the class of miners who can produce their own templates, though it reduces the problem with delegated template construction as seen with centralized mining pools.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> I mean, that'd create a federation of ~4 groups for advancing the Monero blockchain, but yeah

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> The TEE design doesn't require any whitelisting

<r​ucknium:monero.social> If you want a pessimistic view on the security of PoW-secured blockchains, here it is: Budish (2025) "Trust at Scale: The Economic Limits of Cryptocurrencies and Blockchains" Quarterly Journal of Economics ericbudish.org/wp-content/uploads/2…es-and-Blockchains-QJE-Feb-2025.pdf

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> It still allows anyone* to produce blocks

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> *anyone with a TEE

<r​ucknium:monero.social> The flow is protecting the stock. And the flow is thin, especially in Monero at the moment. Of course, it will get no thinner (in XMR terms), but BTC's flow will.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> boog900: You'd represent the entire DB within a Merkle tree, and require the tree root (just 32 bytes) be protected against rollbacks. Then, you'd validate the path upon every DB read/write.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> You'd also require a fixed size ring buffer you always exhaustively iterate for confidential data :/

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> I'm not clear if Intel even gives you 32 bytes without rollback, or even a timestamp of last usage though...

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> It seems it'll give you a montonic counter and you can require the DB entry be synchronized with the counter?