<c​larck__amberson:matrix.org> Just tell us your original problem instead of beating around the bush

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I think the biggest issue with the report is that it is long and trails off into things unrelated to the milestone

<w​oodser:monero.social> why can’t the rules be clear and stand on their own?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/c…als/-/merge_requests/489#note_26721 py_verse:

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Because they were written in 1992

<w​oodser:monero.social> are developers allowed to develop locally until they publish and request payment for milestones? should have a clear answer

<c​larck__amberson:matrix.org> Well i agree but did you just wake up and Choose to check if CCS rules are flawed or not?

<c​larck__amberson:matrix.org> Or you were trying to do something but you were afraid that rules might restrict you

<c​larck__amberson:matrix.org> > <@woodser:monero.social> why can’t the rules be clear and stand on their own?

<c​larck__amberson:matrix.org> Well i agree but did you just wake up and Choose to check if CCS rules are flawed or not?

<c​larck__amberson:matrix.org> Or you were trying to do something but you were afraid that ccs rules might restrict you

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Yes

ofrnxmr it depends how?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Any milestone being claimed should have source fully available

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> If the milestone is code

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> If the milestone is not code, like "i need $ to submit to app store", we dont expect the dev to release their apple app store keys

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> The main thing is that the code for the milestone is not in violation of the code.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Rule 4 "mule be permissively licensed" does not dictate what license must be used

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> This is Agplv3 iirc, so its required that modifications are made pu lic

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> public*

ofrnxmr gotcha

makes sense

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> if you dont release the software publicly, you (shouldnt afaict) have to release source code. But releasing publicly must include source

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I think the drama here is less about the current milestone, and more about the breach of the license a couple weeks back

ofrnxmr i don't know which milestone / project you're referring to. nor breach.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/c…als/-/merge_requests/489#note_26721

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> This project. And a couple weeks ago, beta binaries were pushed out and advertised to the public, but didn't have accompanying source code

<p​ointoffailure:monero.social> WTF I just had to read? How do you suppose to publish the code before you've developed it, you, stupid retard?!

<p​ointoffailure:monero.social> The rule says that you cannot restrictively __license__ the code during the development and don't even try to do it locally with your dirty little hands, or they will FUCKING KILL YOU!!!! ☠️

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> The binaries were pulled, instead of releasing the source.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> had the binaries never been released, i dont think we'd have this drama right now. But the release was a breach of the license (and our rule). Pulling the binaries means were jb compliance with the rule, but not with agplv3

ofrnxmr: eventually both code and bins were released? because i checked a few days ago and found everything i was looking for

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> No, the code wasnt afaik

which component?

yeah i suspected it was this project

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> The app itself

gotcha

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> You can share bins privately within your org w/o source, but cannot release publicly. Again, i think were causing drama over a mistake, but its hard to "unsee" things that were seen

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> its my OPINION that if there is a holdup, that is why

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> To directly answer woodser- yes tou can dev in private. You only need to release code when you release products or request milestones

<w​oodser:monero.social> the binaries were pulled instead of publishing the code. my understanding is the milestone payout is now being withheld due to breach of rules, which were rectified, so I wanted to clarify the rules

<w​oodser:monero.social> (the code for the milestone has been published under a permissive license)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Pulling the binaries doesnt put you back in compliance with agplv3 afaict

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Its not the milestone that is blocking, its the ccs itself (the binary release violating the license)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> afaict, the milestone is properly sourced and eligible for release. Only thing in the way is the lack of source for the binary the was released. Maybe i'm wrong, but thats what this looks like to me

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> "made a mistake. Wont happen again" would usually suffice, but maybe precedent is being set ? I _assume_ that releasing source for the / a binary would rectify any concerns. 🤷‍♂️

good framing. looks like we need to look into the wording of agplv3

also curious that the guy doesn't just release the source at this point

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Its not like we have any idea what that bin was built out of, so we cant prove any source release matches the bin.. probably just drawing a hard line about importance of licenses when it comes to spending money that was essentially earmarked and not raised

and claim 2 milestones instead of 1

plow sof is sleeping :)

i think the quickest solution to this is kewbit release the app source.

i don't think anyone here has ever seen ccs not pay a person that has met all expectations, so since there is clearly source available, it should be released, without fear of not being compensated for it

reading the agplv3, it very clearly is meant to dictate that source always be released. ccs mandates that the license be followed. therefore the source has to be released.

the released dart library source is applying agplv3, if not monerod woodser

<w​oodser:monero.social> it was a mistake to publish the preview binaries and they were pulled down. now payments for different milestones are being withheld. am I understanding that his CCS proposal is effectively terminated because of this mistake, unless the source code to those unpublished binaries is released?

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Maybe wait for plowsof and luigi

I thought the source *was* available, but will have to recheck more closely if the source that's available matches the bins I haven't deleted :P there's pub.dev/haveno published as well

err sorry, that's pub.dev/packages/haveno

and promising work in pub.dev/packages/i2p as well

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> feel free to check out the source too github.com/KewbitXMR/flutter_haveno

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> see if you can spot I problem I guess?

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Good luck reversing a flutter app to see if it matches source/doesn't contain malware :^)

<s​iren:kernal.eu> It's a pain in the ass :))) how convenient

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I cant, it's not longer available, I wasn't sure why the first milestone wasn't paid it was instead refused despite being completed and open sourced and also licences with like the most copyleft licence there is .. AGPLv3 there is literally nothing more I could have done for the milestone

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> it is sad for sure, but of course most of this is a ploy now because obviously I was going to not be happy about it all these random ppl popping out of the shadows suddengly to hate

<s​iren:kernal.eu> What are you talking about? Since this is your CCS, it wasn't you who released proprietary binaries?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Sure, did I specifically ask you to download them though?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Should I just magic CI / CD pipeines out of thin air instantly ready for you all for free?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> sorry I didn't do more than build an entire app for haveno, ill keep your comment in mind for next time

<s​iren:kernal.eu> ??? You're either malicious or a contractor from hell

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> ahh wait, obviouly, its not going to happen again

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Must be!

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> There are no logical explainations for any of it of course

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> its just a contractor from hell :)

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Who's alt is this :P

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Let me get this right. For one moment you said it is open source and AGPLv3 licensed. Someone else says it was proprietary binaries. All the while my understanding is that there were some binaries somewhere, that got pulled. So... when did the source code become available, before or after binaries were public?

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> The proprietary binaries line throws me off the woods, what is it? 😂

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> The honest truth is I had never licensed a piece of software ever but I'm now very conscious of licensing

<s​iren:kernal.eu> It was explained to you above. You broke the policy of your own license (your dependencies' licenses too) and the CCS policy. Sheer stupidity if you don't understand what is wrong.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> yes I am aware, I accepted it already no need to reiterate, ultimate everyones going to be mad the ploy didnt work on me

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> im just glad I reserved the builds now

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> was a smart move in the end

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> when true colors came out

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Of yourself I assume

<s​iren:kernal.eu> (hopefully not)

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> thats what I've taken solace in basically

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> I'm still waiting for an answer! 😂

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> lol I've worked 4 months of honet work on this

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> its just funny all of this, starts pretty much immediately after I tell diego I jusrt dont trust him, which I dont he gave me then an ultimatum which I refused, i'm not sure why but there it is.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Okay, but don't mix me with the other retards, I'm legitimately asking a question in there, no hidden agenda or prosecution lol.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> all the parrots come out

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Question is simple... Since when is the AGPLv3 source code you mention available? Before or after binaries?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> well you'v obiiously been told some nonsence because you've joined in with it

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> No, retard.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> I'm not going to ask the question a third time. 🤷‍♂️

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> well it depends retard, for apks there is a workflow in github

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> That's for building, you autistic cunt loo.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> so they built every time, and it was probably a mix and match on the others

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> haha

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> That's for building, you autistic cunt lol.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> ok now im enjoying this

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> what a major U turn you guys have pulled off

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> And he still has not answered the question!

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> What ultimatum? Holy shit 😂.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> woodser pretty much being the only one not influenced by any of this shit clearly

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> mm?

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> I'm assuming your proactive avoidance of the question means the code only became available after you pulled the binaries?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> yeah its hilarious

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> you've got your pretty corrupt team pretty much it seems

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> serhack if you're around shoot me a message

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> you only made a big deal of these binaries at the end

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> smart choice but not smart enough clearly

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> ??? Siren what is he on about?

<s​iren:kernal.eu> I have no idea

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Lol, I'm done trying to have a conversation with him.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> :D

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> You are incorrect. The CCS proposal will be terminated because we've been made aware of additional code that is being withheld from public view and correct licensing until payout as leverage for the payouts to be made. This is not acceptable and rule 4 of the CCS states all code must be FOSS'd at all times at all stages.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> not really , your reqest for the source was terminates because I saw through your utter shit

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> not really , your reqest for the source was terminated because I saw through your utter shit

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> This has been explained to you thoroughly. There is no corruption here. It's laughable that asking people who are using our system to follow the system's rules is being called 'corruption'

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> it sure feels like it after spending 4 months building an app

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> yeah

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> what else can explain this behaviour other than a ploy

<s​iren:kernal.eu> This can ccs.getmonero.org/what-is-ccs

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> the feed back for ages was generally positive

<s​iren:kernal.eu> If you mean our behavior

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> the "ultimatum" in question is that he follows the rules and FOSS everything immediately or the proposal can't continue. Thems the rules.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> you then switched the agenda very quick

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Foss it or toss it

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Toss it for sure

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> There is no way on earth I am giving it out

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> > I dont really have it in me to finish this for now. Dealing with some personal issues.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> >

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> > This project has also attracted attention of some nasty people I would rather not have messaging me, apologies for the obscurity. Closed until firther notice

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> >

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> > Kewbit

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> The binaries thing is a secondary issue, and honestly not worth talking about much imo. The larger issue is that there is unreleased, non-public code that is being used as leverage.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> the idea has completely gone with the wind

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> like completely

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> github.com/KewbitXMR/haveno-app

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> fireice pulled this back in the day to a lesser degree (at least that code was "source available" which led to the rule in the first place, if you all recall

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> fireice pulled this back in the day to a lesser degree (at least that code was "source available") which led to the rule in the first place, if you all recall

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> yeah fork it , it's like 1% of the project lol

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I wasn't aware of this issue until today when it was discussed with me, at which point I contacted you to clear the situation up. The situation was made clear, and the options presented. You chose to not FOSS, so the proposal will not move forward.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> I'm pointing out to what the readme says, that's it.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Case in point

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> yeah made clear quite a while ago

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> when we chatted!

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Indeed. Everything is clear to me, don't worry. Just defending our side against the whining and accusations.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> You're free to whine here (to a point), and I'm free to present my side of the story just as much.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I will share the news actually on about this

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I've decided it's that big enough of a scam

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I have a question, did you or did you not read the rules before you made the proposal?

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Though I think cancelling the CCS right away might not be the right choice here. I suggest inspecting what was delivered (if the mistake was corrected already and the source is available) and if it's good just let this be a warning for this time.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Because an exception was made for a movie proposal before. Again on the licence rule.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I appreciate having seen everyone for who they are today, I have after all entered a world of criminals, should not have been so niave! or such an austic cunt I think as rotten said

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I spoke with both luigi and plowsof, after my discussion with kewbit and presented them options. It's been decided that we are sticking to the rules of the CCS and not bending them. Those rules have been around for years, and they are very clear.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I can make rule 4 in all caps for future proposers :)

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Oh fuck the licence rule, I wish I had been malicious now, would have got a bargain for my buck, but sadly you got it wrong this time and fucked it up for yourrself

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> You still haven't answered the question. Did you or did you not read the rules before you made the proposal?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> You have nobody to be mad at except yourself for either not reading or not abiding by the clearly stated rules in the CCS.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Yes I did, I had broke one of the rules, so it is indeed my fault, I'm not fussed about the money, I'm just glad you didnt manage to concience. me to hand over the surce with all that shit you tried on me

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Yes I did, I had broke one of the rules, so it is indeed my fault, I'm not fussed about the money, I'm just glad you didnt manage to convince me to hand over the source with all that shit you tried on me

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Feel free to upload the entire chat into a pastebin and share here. I have nothing to hide and stand by everything I said in our discussion.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> You do actually

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> You pretty much started the conversatiion with a polite threat, right off the bat

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> The way you approached me seemed reasonable at first

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I'm sure you were being cautious for that purpose

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> You did do a relatively 'good job' of making yourself look goood until the end tho

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Do you mind if I share the entire conversation then?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> if that's your way of shoftening your own blow sure

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Do as you please buddy

<w​oodser:monero.social> Diego Salazar: milestone are paid on an individual basis, before other milestones are completed, no?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> and thanks again for ruining a community project

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> because you cannot be trusted, you're a lair.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> And lugi1111

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I mean what I said, I entered the conversation with the intention to learn and with an incomplete story given by several people. Over the course of our conversation I learned what was going on, and I adjusted my stances.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> There the fuck that 2000xmr bro

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Of was it lost buddy

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> No woodser. Rule 4 says: All work must be licensed permissively at all stages of the proposal. There is no time where your work can be licensed under a restrictive license (even as you're working on it). Your proposal will be terminated if this is not remedied.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> sorry to here that the community lost about 200k foucking grande to your shit

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> how did fluffy and binarybyte not see through this shit

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> are they in this shit or IRC

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> imma get at least one of them

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> get some fucking rational conversation going for a at least a little while

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> luigi1111: you're being summoned. luigi1111 too

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> binaryFate: binaryfate

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> No I am not summoning luigi111 ih'es fucking in on it

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> sadly

<w​oodser:monero.social> Diego Salazar: my question is not in regards to licensing, but in regards to milestones being completed sequentially. they’re paid out before subsequent milestones are released, no?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> fluffypony isn't part of the core team anymore

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> so you've basically corrupt the entire community ecosystem and fucked the whole coin then

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> silently stealing money over the years

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> literally from people in these chats

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> mugs

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> especially luigi1111

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> This would be the case, until it was learned that there is more code for other milestones that has not been FOSS'd SPECIFICALLY to use as a hedge for receiving payouts. This is not acceptable, and not a game we're interested in paying.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> crpyto attack on the general fund

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> my ass!

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> me personally? goodness I'm good then.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> the community need to figure out SOME kind of way of ousting luigi1111 and Diego out like seriously

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> and fast

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I'm hopeful they dont have the getmonero.org domain in their possession

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Diego Salazar: kewbit: I suggest cooling off for now because the discussion isn't constructive and let the community vote the next meeting.

<w​oodser:monero.social> I don’t see how that’s relevant to completing milestones with a permissive license. developers are free to publish subsequent milestones when they are ready, no?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> not at all, I will literally keep at it until you're seen for your true fucking colours dude

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I am completely cool and in control of myself, but I am happy to disengage.

<w​oodser:monero.social> kewbit may I have a moment please?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Machiavellian and cheating, whereeverr you feel like you've got a shot at it you take it

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> yeah sorry

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> nice to get that on off my chest, thank you.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> nice to get that one off my chest, thank you.

<3​21bob321:monero.social> dankon siren finger on the pulse

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> and I do appreciate the support woodser but there is no sense here, the room is a bit of a facade

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Monerobull I havent actually heard much from you, are you around at the moment

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I would like to hear his take on this, please

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> look whoever is responsible for the getmonero.org domain we need to make sure they are not corrput next

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> this is my word of advice idk who that is

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Honestly, for the sake of at least those who were stolen from I will seek remedy

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> not fucking clue how yet

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> He seems good at dodging questions, haha.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> yeah ive basically just gone on a rampage after diego set a precedence that this whole time I was a scammer

kewbit shared a private github to me personally prior to release so it was technically available ... you have to ask. available is compliant, you can for example charge $20 to mail them a cd/usb of the source. or so i've been told

i didn't do a full review but it looked right... fwiw...

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> anyone with 2 brain cells could figure out I'm just trying to make some software and contribute something, get paid back from some donors.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> It was perfect really

i'm not saying the bins are/were safe but there's lots of code already done was my point.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> i dont know what the fuck he ruined it all for, everyone literally would have won

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> its was a win win win setup

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> im past all that trying to prove myself bro

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> honestly

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Don't listen to what sneurlax is saying! He's just a sleepy big pokemon who hasn't even washed his face yet!

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I'm just now trying to get the idiots that havent yet realised, that luigi and dieigo are just scamming

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> 😂😂😂

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> well so am I

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> actually I was inspirated by mew

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I am a custom pokemon

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> kewbit you're not getting too far if you keep doing what you're doing... I'm just letting you know, my good friend.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> wtf

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> you've just switched back to normal again

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Does this message say kewbit or sneurlax?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> you spastic

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I was literally dispatched by luigi and plowsof to get an understanding of the situation, and I did so. I reported back and they gave me an answer.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Take a break, you sound unhinged and whiny...

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I am literally paid to be the messenger boy that people get mad at. :P

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> i am pissed bro

@r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu: yes

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> but selttling

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> imagine working yo ASS off for 4 months

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> 😴

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> and ultimately just get nothing be a pile of shit when the first milestone is done, ready to go and literally, ap would have been delivered TODAY

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> if I had just been paid for my milestone

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> It wouldnt have been perfect but the builds would have matched

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> nhh man thats just rude

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Let's create a bot that spits rule 4 every hour for the next 24-48 hrs. until whiny Karen gets it...

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> no getting it is not what I need

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I got it back in the convo with Deigo

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> as discussed privately, literally all that needs to be done is FOSSing of the current work, including WIP work, and the proposal can proceed. There is zero question in anyone's mind (and I suspect your own as well) that you will be paid for work done

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> but you are choosing to cling to an error out of some misguided 'principle of the thing'

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> i guess plowsoff hasnt had enough leverage to give an opinion yet, you still got this one on a leash?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> recall I went to the maintainers of the CCS (plowsof and luigi) for an answer on how to proceed forward, I did not come up with it myself.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> the only fucking seemingly genuine person here

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> besides woodser

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I am leashed to them, not the other way around

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> yeah bro

sheesh still getting caught up. i see "source available" was explicitly covered lol, damn...

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> sure

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> not avail

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> unavail

<s​iren:kernal.eu> It is also normal to be losing their shit after putting in months of work and getting cancelled because of this mistake. Rules are clear but I imagine this person has been picking up on public tenders or working with the gov: kewbit.org/hire-me

<s​iren:kernal.eu> So it may be normal that he doesn't understand licensing or didn't expect the CCS rule to be there.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> > <@rottenwheel:kernal.eu> Take a break, you sound unhinged and whiny...

<s​iren:kernal.eu> It is also normal to be losing their shit after putting in months of work and getting cancelled because of this mistake. Rules are clear but this person has been picking up on public tenders or working with the gov: kewbit.org/hire-me

<s​iren:kernal.eu> So it may be normal that he doesn't understand licensing or didn't expect the CCS rule to be there. His previous work experience didn't require him to understand FOSS licensing probably.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> > <@rottenwheel:kernal.eu> Take a break, you sound unhinged and whiny...

<s​iren:kernal.eu> It is also normal to be losing their shit after putting in months of work and getting cancelled because of this mistake. Rules are clear but this person has been picking up on public tenders or working with the gov: kewbit.org/hire-me

<s​iren:kernal.eu> So it may be normal that he doesn't understand licensing or didn't expect the CCS rule to be there. Their previous work experience didn't require him to understand FOSS licensing probably.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Cloudflare...

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> My nervous tick is back! Thanks!

<s​iren:kernal.eu> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…/kernal.eu/mRwTeViuSDxvYxSiRYdWJRZE

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> yeah gotta change that now obviously

<s​iren:kernal.eu> His projects on GitHub are open source but they lack licenses also

I agree with the options given to kewbit (which may or may not be open still, ive not read the back log). If we care about public relations, trying to keep it professional here would be beneficial

<s​iren:kernal.eu> His projects on GitHub are open source but they lack licenses also github.com/KewbitXMR?tab=repositories

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Not much experience overall. So it could be lack of knowledge more than malice.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> The thing is though that nobody is TRYING to withhold money. The rule is easily followed by FOSSing current work, and then there is literally no issue.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> No, I literrally LITERALLY did that

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> with milestone 1

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> so thats not enough alone

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> clearly it wasnt going to be be enough

<m​onerobull:monero.social> Stop making vague mafia threats to devs

<m​onerobull:monero.social> I'll have to catch up on the chat in a bir

The european shift is beginning

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> rottenwheel,

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> try me

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> give it your best

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Vague what?

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Where the fuck is the 'vague mafia threat' in there? Are you out of your mind?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> rotten you're in no position

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> monerobull @monerobull:monero.social explain yourself with a quote.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> to be raided right now

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I know that for a fact

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> "kewbit you're not getting too far if you keep doing what you're doing... I'm just letting you know, my good friend."

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> This is exactly the messahe you quote replied to, claiming it was a "vague mafia threat". Where is the "threat"? Explain yourself or retract your libel, bull.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> "kewbit you're not getting too far if you keep doing what you're doing... I'm just letting you know, my good friend."

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> This is exactly the message you quote replied to, claiming it was a "vague mafia threat". Where is the "threat"? Explain yourself or retract your libel, bull.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> rotten you're literallt fuckign doxxed

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Lmfao this... individual for lack of a better word, reads: you're not getting too far if you keep doing what you're doing and he loses his marbles and claims it is a mafia threat. Fuck off monerobull @monerobull:monero.social

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> or at least were at one point

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> I told you to go take a break two hours ago my dude...

<m​onerobull:monero.social> Now you are making the mafia threats 🫠

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> im not going to paste it

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> but out of all the people in here hes the one that needs to be sat the fuck down

<m​onerobull:monero.social> You'd get banned

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> its not my style

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I would expect nothing less

<0​xfffc:monero.social> anybody is aware of a VPS provider service like servers.guru but with risc-v support?

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> That's a good question... 🤔

<m​onerobull:monero.social> SBC diy farm?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> try kyun.host ?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> just got a RISC-V laptop in literally today

<3​21bob321:monero.social> which ccs is the issue about?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> it's too slow. :( not yet ready for desktop primetime

<0​xfffc:monero.social> I see. Just want to make sure some of our tests running on risc-v without any issue.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/489

<j​effro256:monero.social> I think regardless of whether or not that rule "technically" forces you to publish everything as you're writing it, the rule is pretty unambiguous (in spirit and in letter) that in order to receive milestone benefits, you need to have *result* publicly available under a permissive license. A milestone is definitely a "stage of the proposal"

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> My brain feels normal to here something locally sound again, thank you!

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> But is that really worth using to ruin a project over

<3​21bob321:monero.social> you bascially need to publish your work so people can verify

<j​effro256:monero.social> kewbit: so is the source code of the work you are claiming under the first milestone still not publicly available?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Yes I agree

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Woodser and I have been discussing, and his reasoning of "rules as written" is talking on permissive licensing and not on withholding code" is somewhat swaying for me.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> My current thinking is to potentially ask for the milestone to be paid out, but an amendment be added to rule 4 regarding publishing work on a reasonable, ongoing basis.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Honestly your wording is inflammatory at best but if we are result oriented, no. But you must publish complete source code of the milestone you are trying to claim. You will never get paid without this.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> That makes 100% sense, which is why I not only did that, I wrote an article on my blog on how to interface with the API so even if you were not taht much into development you could have folllowed it to

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> That makes 100% sense, which is why I not only did that, I wrote an article on my blog on how to interface with the API so even if you were not taht much into development you could have folllowed it too

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I wanted to go the extra mile

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Because I enjoyed this

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> No. The work for this milestone is FOSS'd. The issue is that it has come to light that large swaths of code for future milestones are not FOSS's, specifically to be used as leverage to ensure future milestones are paid, which is not in the spirit of the CCS.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> What are you talking about furture milestones for?

<3​21bob321:monero.social> so whats the issue then

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> What are you talking about future milestones for, you havent even settled this one?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> of course there is no chance of a future miletstone if you cant settle the first

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> The argument made by woodser, which is the most compelling, is that the rules as written only speaks to licensing, not public availability, and that technically anyone writing any character and not pushing immediately is in violation.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> what were you expecting

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> dont tell me you're finally only starting to see sense now

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> My guy. Do you not remember, me literally thinking you should be getting paid for milestone 1 and bringing that to the maintainers?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> My guy. Do you not remember, me literally thinking you should be getting paid for milestone 1 and bringing that to the maintainers on your behalf?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Why having a milestone system in place, if you dont want to operate it correctly?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I brought it to them, and after some discussion amongst us, I was swayed by the discussion on the spirit of the CCS being collaborative.

<3​21bob321:monero.social> so how is it "licensed permissively" if its not committed to a repo

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Please just give me a rational explanation to this

<3​21bob321:monero.social> going off trust

<3​21bob321:monero.social> is this the issue ?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> After speaking to woodser, I'm partially swayed by him as well. I'm not trying to be wishy washy. The truth of the matter is that there was an oversight in the wording of rule 4 that gives you a technicality to stand on. And I am mostly in agreement that 'rules as written' should probably be followed which would give you pay out

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> It's incredibly inneffeint if I were to say, make a commit to github every time I change one character ?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> its ludicrus

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> the github would be a complete mess

<j​effro256:monero.social> Okay I'm seeing where the actual disagreement is. I was under the impression that the source code for the current miletsone wasn't FOSS'd, which would make the discussion a lot more clear cut

<3​21bob321:monero.social> so was it committed to github when you made milestone 1 claim?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> My suggestion is that an amendment to rule 4 be added for future proposals. Something along the lines of: "All WIP is expected to be uploaded to appropriate channels on a reasonable ongoing basis for public viewing."

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Your concern should be, is the work getting done, yes or no, is what he producing working yes or no

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> that said, I understand that such wording would not affect current proposals

<3​21bob321:monero.social> ?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Not, of has it been 10 days yet, or should I force this particular indivudual to do all of his milestones at once

<3​21bob321:monero.social> i think its obvious. If its not public you cant claim cause how do people know you did the work?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> yes its called a fallacy

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Dan

<3​21bob321:monero.social> its called hear say your honor

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Right. But again, what makes things murky is that the code for the first milestone that he has submitted is both public and permissively licensed. In this sense it is eligible for payout.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> The eye-roll happens when kewbit admits in several rooms that there are large parts of code that he has completed for other milestones that he is withholding from public viewing specifically for the reason of leverage to ensure he gets paid for future milestones, because he doesn't trust the CCS.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> it's literally non-sense aimed at producting a certain result from the css proposer

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> should be better worded

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> or more elebroate

<3​21bob321:monero.social> thats fine. Gets paid per milestone

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> because you cause just stick that one up anyones ass

<s​iren:kernal.eu> It is fair for him to not release the code until payout for the previous milestone that he did not receive. It is not good to be releasing proprietary binaries still.

<3​21bob321:monero.social> oh

<s​iren:kernal.eu> But the problem is not as bad since it wasn't the binaries for the milestones he was at

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> And I would apologies for it if you wasnt such a cunt earlier

<s​iren:kernal.eu> But the problem is not as bad since it wasn't the binaries for the milestone he was at

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> correct. The binaries are a secondary thing and don't factor into the discussion, honestly.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> me?

<3​21bob321:monero.social> language people

<3​21bob321:monero.social> dankon everyone

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I was referring to Siron

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> gotcha

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> But instead of independent t thought, it was a bandwagon notion, not something I'd expect tbh

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> But instead of independent thoughts, it was a bandwagon notion, not something I'd expect tbh

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> For this reason, my own personal opinion as it stands now (fwiw, again I'm not the CCS maintainer) has changed slightly due to my conversation with woodser. I now take my original thought again that kewbit should be paid out for the first milestone under rules as written. But that a new clause should be added to rule 4 to prevent such cringe from happening again.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> that's all fine, but I am still only releasing every milestone now

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> period

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> The purpose of rule 4 was to prevent scams and encourage collaboration. If an entire milestone is mostly done, but the person gets hit by a bus, all work needs to be redone. It also presupposes other people can jump in to help on the work, paid or not.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> if you deem that to be unreasonable I dont care for this one

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I'm already over it geneuinly

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> If you want this now figure it out for your community

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> if we go with rules as currently written, there is a strong argument to be made here, yes.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> and make it work

<s​iren:kernal.eu> I don't care about your apology. I was mostly being defensive, even if you did violate the rule for the current milestone my opinion was it should result in a warning not cancellation because exceptions were made before.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> As long as that is crystal clear, payment each milestone. despite thoroughly pissing me off all day, I might still accept it.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Many people asked you what happened and you didn't bother clarifying and dodged all the questions

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I know you are (or were, since you said you're over it) extremely upset. But it would behoove you to not shoot the messenger. Once again, I brought the suggestion to core to pay for the milestone.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I need some air

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> brb

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Grab an English book too

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> also, in case you missed it, I shot you a DM after my discussion with woodser saying I'd be willing to bring that up for discussion with them again and potentially get the three of you in a room to discuss if you'd like. Despite your personal, directed antagonism.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I couldnt think of an excuse for it, only the one I originally made clear it was just for the people who wanted to test, I was even advising against using their machine they could use virtual box or emulators to make myself regarded as more ingenious on the idea that there could potentially be virus in there

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I definitely made that clear it was even clearly written in the README on the front page of the repo today before pausing it

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> dude, you literally suck

<3​21bob321:monero.social> less combative would be better for you.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> do what you want man, I'm not expecting nothing at this rate

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> that was an accidental double negative

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> im tired

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> meh, I mean if you don't care then I won't care

hey, I care!

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> no I you guys need to learn respect

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> ok sneurlax cares so I care

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> That means a lot to me

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> in our entire conversation, I have spoken calmly and have not disrespected you, as far as I know.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> If I dont have your respect, I couldnt care less, something I thought I had earned over time

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I stood firm on something, yes. But just because we disagreed doesn't make it disrespectful.

<j​effro256:monero.social> I think that this amendment especially makes sense for "hourly" work or other work without clearly defined deliverables. Bus factor + sense of collaboration is especially important if you're "on the payroll". But if your milestones have hard boundaries, I'd like to reward that, and be fine not applying this rule and having the work only need to be FOSS'd at each milestone. I think<clipped message>

<j​effro256:monero.social> the core premise of the CCS acknowledges that collaboration for the sake of collaboration is great, but people also need to pay the bills. On the other hand, why would you use CCS if you don't trust that they will pay out in the future? Also, at a more personal level, IMHO not open sourcing work for an open source payment protocol when raising funds through a crowdfunding system <clipped message>

<j​effro256:monero.social> is bad form.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> clearly that means nothig to you filthy bandwagoners, fair play to those that had their own opinions

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> siron = scum

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> rotton = scum

sneurlax = ????

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> bum

BUM

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> bum

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> ok then

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> whatever same differnce

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> perhaps the community has indeed changed then. Something similar happened with fireice back in the day, don't know who remembers that or not.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I didn't even get air yet ffs

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Didn't you need some air?

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> And were going to brb?

<s​iren:kernal.eu> The authors of all these packages, yes? github.com/KewbitXMR/haveno-app/blob/main/pubspec.lock

<s​iren:kernal.eu> You need to learn to respect their terms.

<j​effro256:monero.social> What happened with fireice?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> the what?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> fireice released code for his proposal as "unlicensed" as it was WIP. Publicly viewable, but not permissive. Core team ruled this was not in the spirit of the CCS, and the proposal was cancelled as he refused to FOSS until payment.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> This literally led to the creation of rule 4

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> ... And RYO? Lol.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> but I havent unlicenced it at any point in time

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> If you're going to accuse at lease setup some kind of monotring system

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> If you're going to accuse at least setup some kind of monitring system

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> that's the technicality at play here, yes

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I dont understand the issue

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> tbh I stilll dont 100% understand most licences

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I'm describing what happened before that led to this rule. If fireice had instead said he has code but won't reveal it until he's paid, rule 4 might have covered that edge case

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Just that it's important to you guys that I make this AGPLv3

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> ive done that for everything in fact, it's my default licence for any project now

kewbit, my understanding is that your claim is that you have open sourced everything. but diego mentions that you have other code in reserve because you aren't confident that the CCS will pay?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> dont know why just is

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I guess I'm just nothing thinking about certain semantice the same way you think about them

<s​iren:kernal.eu> You cannot distribute proprietary binaries without the license information for these libraries and source code (if you included a GPL or AGPL dependency). Which is what you did.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I guess I'm just nothing thinking about certain semantics the same way you think about them

<s​iren:kernal.eu> This is unrelated to the CCS policy but still an asshole move

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> And I do appreciate you telling me that in which case we can resolve

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> you know, with a bit of teamwork?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> There are two kinds of licenses, both are generally considered to be FOSS. Those two kinds are permissive and copyleft.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Permissive means you can mostly do what you want with very few restrictions (mostly give attribution to the original author).

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Copyleft means anything utilizing that library must be published under the SAME license.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> What this means in real-world terms is that for-profit corporations and companies can use permissive licenses and close-source them and their changes. If they used copyleft, they would have to make large portions of their code ALSO copyleft (i.e. open source) and they don't want to do that because it would lead to more competition and less revenue.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> or do we not do that here

<j​effro256:monero.social> Oh I'm 100% on the "licensed permissively" aspect of the rule when it comes to claiming compensation for work. But I'm unsure whether work for milestones for which the proposer isn't claiming payouts for, and which clearly don't fall under that milestone, should have to be FOSS'd

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Siren he calls you scum and then asks for teamwork, somewhere in between claimed we don't respect him.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> He does need a break...

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> There is something I'm missing here there must be. TO BE CLEAR EVERYTHING IS AGPLV3

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Read my message again, it tells you exactly what not to do.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> the teamwork thing is literally what we're doing here in this chat isn't it? I for one am still trying to solve the problem. If I wasn't I would have just went to bed after the insults. :P

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> If however that needs to change, I can be advised

<j​effro256:monero.social> But not the already performed work for the proposal which is to be claimed in future milestones.... yeah?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> And I change it to the chicken dance licence if you so wish, the licence is at your leisure not mine

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> This is indeed worth a 'meta issue' :P

s​iren:kernal.eu: I don't want to look, is it a haveno-app dependency in that pubspec that's GPL?

or from haveno/flutter_haveno?

if you use a GPL dependency then yeah, they disallow themselves from being used without the source being available

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> The only example I can give is using AGPLv3, monerobull was forcing me to, so I set it to that

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I will have to build the UI onto of the software that licence which I guess also must be AGPLv3

<s​iren:kernal.eu> It's not about your code, it's about the dependencies that you have pulled. You need to comply with their licenses.

s/used/distributed in bins as mentioned.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> unless it contains binaries/

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> unless it contains binaries?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> This is actually copyleft. You should use MIT or BSD-3.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> guptadeepak.com/open-source-licensing-101-everything-you-need-to-know

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Ok I need to understand more about licences, I get it now

well... i looked at the pubspec and they're all common packages, mostly mit, and i don't want to look every one up, so if the claim is that one is gpl, just link it

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> though this is not the issue being discussed and would have been easily resolved without grumbling, I'm sure

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I actually dont know enough about it, so I probably need to be advised and we discuss if there is to be a new repo what licence I should render it with

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> this isn't the issue being discussed

first, just showing source fixes all issues regardless of licensing, right?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> or at least not the one I'm discussing

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> libera.monerologs.net/monero-community/20241022#c449067

<s​iren:kernal.eu> sneurlax: even if it's MIT nowhere in the app is an acknowledgement of the lib used and it's license. And the binary was not distributed with the license info either.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> you can see all the sources from the pubspec

<s​iren:kernal.eu> sneurlax: even if it's MIT nowhere in the app is an acknowledgement of the lib used and its license. And the binary was not distributed with the license info either.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> even now I wont complicate that

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I'll give you the live one

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> up to date .yml

<s​iren:kernal.eu> I cannot ensure your release had the same pubsec as the public repo since your binary was proprietary

ok... i don't cite the licenses of every dependency i use either, sooo... i guess... i should... start doing that...

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> fwiw, I'll say it one more time, the issue kewbit currently has with the CCS maintainers has nothing to do with the binaries thing

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> What's your solution?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> if you already understand this then carry on

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> You want this completeless trustless, it's ideal for you but it's not compatible with a milstone structure is it?

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Read the fucking license it's two paragraphs if MIT

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> You want this completely trustless, it's ideal for you but it's not compatible with a milstone structure is it?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I fucking will, you you're literally useless so stfu from now on

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I will read MIT, what else?

<s​iren:kernal.eu> 🤦

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> There is no incompatibility. I understand the confusion and have since the beginning. Your read of the milestone system is that it's there for the protection of the proposer. To ensure they have a failsafe and can get paid for prior milestones, even if future milestones are withheld.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> To my understanding (I could be wrong) this is not the intent of the milestones.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I dont mind if like sneurlax insults me cause at least hes got a bit of banter at the best of times but who the fuck even are you Siron

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I dont mind if like sneurlax insults me cause at least hes got a bit of banter at the best of times but who the fuck even are you Siren

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> The milestones are actually for the community's protection. So we don't pay everything out up front and potentially get exit scammed. But it also benefits the proposer because it ensures they don't have to do a year's worth of work before getting paid.

"The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all

copies or substantial portions of the Software."

when I flutter pub get the repo, it downloads the source and its LICENSE file as well

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> It was never meant to be a "I don't trust the CCS" trump card, as the thought was that if the CCS and its maintainers aren't trusted to give payouts, why would the individual use it at all?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I was conditioned into that

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I wont explain why

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> becasue I have respect for who advised me

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> end of convo on that

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> glad I listened

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> In simpler terms, the milestone system is there mostly for the community's protection, and generally makes a more palatable contract for both sides. That it gives a proposer some peace of mind when dealing with the system is a side benefit, but not the main reason for its existence.

kewbit, I do think the fatal misstep here really was just publishing binaries because in that case, it's correct, there wasn't acknowledgement there. whereas just publishing the source, if someone builds it, the "substantial copy" of the code downloads the packages and thus their licenses and so is compliant

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Milestone systems work great

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> You can literally divide the risk up into small pieces

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> thats the point, I would even be happy as long as if everyone else agrees to further split them

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> These how real contracts work typically

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> It's a model that is effective

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Which is why I was originally quite happy when I asked about it, I put less risk up front

also i know siren does good work in the ecosystem so no need to insult a hopeful coworker, eh?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> It made everything seem more legitimate

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I was specifically responding to the comment of incompatibility between trustlessness of the proposer and the milestone system, which I outlined why that was incorrect :)

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Until... yeah..

and my questions about what we should acknowledge are for my benefit as well as i hope they are for establishing standards that can help kewbit come into line with expectations.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> The conversation is getting muddied here because kewbit is under fire for two different, unrelated things atm.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Guy's I really mean it, at this point I'm still out.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I literally need to be convinced now

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Whetther that's something you care to do I really doubt

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> As long as milestones system is in place as normal

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> That's a good start

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> the convincing is that many of us have been through hell and back for and with monero and its community. I have, rotten, fluffypony, etc etc.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> But we're still here because that sad truth is, in regards to financial privacy, there is only Monero.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> yes, and here we go again

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I am not everyone else

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> clearly or I woudlnt be entertaining a 7 hour painful conversation

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Yeah there is only monero and wonnero

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> that's why I'm here, I see the value, but im trying really hard to to see the value in this CCS process right now

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I know you see the value. I know that's why you're here. Same for me. I've been the wringer more times than I can count. :P

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> we're trying to iron out a wrinkle in our current process

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> then we need to do that and stop just talking about it

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> nohing in terms of processes has changed since I've been here

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> has it plowsof?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Idk

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I'm sure we covered very similiar arguments to which we came to the same general conclusions before

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Correct, hence my current thought process that your current proposal should continue on with rules as written (i.e. you get payout and can release code as FOSS per milestone right before payout).

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> But at the same time we add a clause the rule 4 that says for future proposals (will NOT apply to current proposals) WIP code should be uploaded for public viewing (and permissively licensed) on a reasonable ongoing basis.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> near starting

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Meaning you continue on with your current proposal unimpeded. And if you're not down with the new terms for future proposals, you can find alternative methods of funding.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I am happy to submit right before payout

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> These are my current thoughts.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I've already done that with the protocol

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> no complaints

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> It seems we are aligned then. You and I, at least.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I really don't care much about the binaries thing.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> thanks fuck for that

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> thank fuck for that

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> We have to care about binaires for f-droid though, or it simply wont compile

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Again, my apologies if I've seemed wishy washy. First for you, then not so much, then back for you again. This situation has highlighted an oversight in our current system, and I've been gathering opinions and thinking on it all day.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> my understanding its thats why they are sought out

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> but that's no worries snerlax can assist with that in his free time :)

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> You're just the unfortunate person that brought that oversight to light.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> well lets make it have been productive then at least?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> cast it in iron somewhere

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I will bring this suggestion to the CCS maintainers.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> bringing oversight into the light can be a delight.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> luigi1111: ^ plowsof ^ btw read dis

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> just my opinion

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> But at the same time we add a clause the rule 4 that says for future proposals (will NOT apply to current proposals) WIP code should be uploaded for public viewing (and permissively licensed) on a reasonable ongoing basis.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I think this shows reasonable understanding for this instance, I am convinced we now may be able to finish this

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> on a reasonable ongoing basis. this needs to be added to your CSS guidlines

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Good. Then I hope you rescind your screeching about me being a scammer who's trying to take down Monero

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> reasonable can be 1-2 to weeks ?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> in mind, if not explicitly voiced, at least ;)

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i wasnt forcing, AGPLv3 was :D

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> contingent on project dependancy complications of that particular project though, their may be exceptions to the rule

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> at the descretion of a decent explaination

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> The specifics of this are to be discussed in a future shouting match with a future proposal and unfortunate soul as we debate and cry about what constitutes "Reasonable"

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> that being said, i dont want to take part in this convo, too early for licensing drama or whatever this is about, cya

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> no I think we've moved past licencing again for the 3rd time during this project

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I will let you know if I think a new repo is appropriate based on code design, I think it should perhaps always be the core teams decision no the licence of that repo

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Correct. Licensing was never the core issue, source availability for non-submitted work was. Thanks for staying on topic here. A bit hard to talk with the noise to signal ratio.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Alright. Since we seem to have a plan of action to move forward, I'll do what I can to discuss with the correct people involved.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> ...tomorrow. It's 1 AM, and I'm quite tired.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> yes but consider this, I was working too fast

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Dealing with you all is the worst, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> you guys couldnt catch up as all

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> it was a bit of. a joke

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> you guys couldnt catch up at all

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> maybe thats in place for good reason

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> but it shouldnt vindicate or have to slow me down

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> so enforcing that rule can damage things unnecessarily in edge cases like mine

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> where I shot ahead

<1​0934dfasl:matrix.org> This doesn't exist already does it? : 'a remittance and international money transfer service end to end cheaper than current solutions (ex- tarnsferwise) but for Monero? for example: local currency A --> monero --> local currency B. with an option to keep a part in monero'

<1​0934dfasl:matrix.org> There isn't software that accomplishes this already does it? : 'a remittance and international money transfer service end to end cheaper than current solutions (ex- tarnsferwise) but for Monero? for example: local currency A --> monero --> local currency B. with an option to keep a part in monero'

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> it does not

<3​21bob321:monero.social> monero condom?

<1​0934dfasl:matrix.org> There isn't software that accomplishes this already does it? : 'a remittance and international money transfer service end to end cheaper than current solutions (ex- tarnsferwise) but for Monero? for example: local currency A --> monero --> local currency B. with an option to keep a part in monero' Thinking of developing a small proof of concept project with this idea

<1​0934dfasl:matrix.org> what do you mean

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> im not installing any software

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> you asked if that exists. It does not. At least not all in one neat package like TransferWise

<1​0934dfasl:matrix.org> ah okay thanks!

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> software installation is completely at my descrection

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> software installation is completely at my descresion

<1​0934dfasl:matrix.org> you don't have to just a potential proof of concept personal project

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> unless you provide a VM?

<1​0934dfasl:matrix.org> do you think its a worthwhile neat project?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Yes, but I think with current financial regulation it will take an astronomical amount of money to get off the ground.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I will doa. transferwise package

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> it's just HTML endpoints

<1​0934dfasl:matrix.org> It's juts proof of concept hypothetical really

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> The licensing that would be needed to be a money transfer agency is huge and difficult to get

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I have it so my home assistant can send a few bux to familiy abroad

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> as a hypothetical, it about reaches one of the core pillars of what Monero has to offer the world.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> ok conversation has switched

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> im dipping now

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> bye!

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> bye

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> well that was a day well spent

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> soft skills, finger on the pulse, yadda yadda

<3​21bob321:monero.social> fingering on the pulse*

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Fyi this is incorrect. A project can have a stricter license (eg. AGPLv3) than its dependencies (eg. MIT). Vice versa does not work because complying with MIT terms alone is not enough for an AGPLv3 dependency. There is nothing wrong with the current license choice.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> You're the only one throwing insults and shitting yourself over valid criticism

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I scrolled for 40 seconds straight without finding the old messages I were at. Is there a tl;dr of woodser rule4 question

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Doesnt say WIP

I think it's fair to work on a future milestone in a "private" manner, if the honest intention is to release that code/deliverable permissively when the milestone is reached/made public. Not sure why the fuss, to be honest.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> > Not sure why the fuss, to be honest

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Welcome to #monero-community, where the most basic question turn into ennemies

fair

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> You are my enemy.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I love you. And you hate me. Therefore you are homophobic

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Checkmates

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Source? 😂

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> for real, no source

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> What makes you think I hate you bb? 😏

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Also, since when you love me? 😳

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> the voices told me

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I disagree with this

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Claiming that someone has to upload WIP code is asinine

<a​remor:matrix.org> It seems that the English inside the AGPLv3 was completely forgotten

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> What is that, the new xmrgplv4?

<a​remor:matrix.org> idk what Diego was on about. Made no sense to me. Obeying AGPLv3 was the only issue. And I don’t see that being fixed.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> you claim in the same breath that MIT is acceptable, and MIT has far fewer9 requirements than agplv3

<a​remor:matrix.org> Diego Salazar:

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I love MIT

<s​iren:kernal.eu> I-I'd like to interject for a moment gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html#Expat

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Interesting. Thanks you for this interject

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> I love ur mum.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Ignore the neckbeards. Make permissive licenses great again. MIT all the things!

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Lol, someone is having an aneurism over that in two seconds.

<0​xfffc:monero.social> ofrnxmr: Ping

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Pong.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Morning 0xfffc

<0​xfffc:monero.social> Check DM

rottenwheel: Can you PM me on the IRC side?

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> dEBRUYNE certainly. Let me log in and I'll shoot you a message in 5-10 minutes. Thanks!

<r​ucknium:monero.social> monerobull: Does monero.town not properly federate with lemmy.cafe? My posts aren't showing up.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> I posted a reply here: lemmy.world/post/21081111

<m​onerobull:monero.social> this is a lemmy.cafe issue, not with town

<m​onerobull:monero.social> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…ero.social/xEJOQzhHRdTSerKyFBnpLvWq

<m​onerobull:monero.social> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…ero.social/dINHyPbYtwXxKsjkUOKXOgfm

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Do you know of a Lemmy instance that properly federates with monero.town?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> like lemmy.world?

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Do you know if lemmy.world accounts can post OK on monero.town?

<m​onerobull:monero.social> havent tested it

<m​onerobull:monero.social> rottenwheel: can you?

<m​onerobull:monero.social> oh lemmy.world

<m​onerobull:monero.social> yeah should be fine

<m​onerobull:monero.social> thats where most of the downvotes come from

<r​ucknium:monero.social> lol ok

<r​ucknium:monero.social> One answer to a probability theory question coming right up.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> I need to "fill out an application" for lemmy.world. If only they would accept a nominal XMR fee

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Ah ok. The application was just typing that I agree to terms of service.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> monerobull: It looks like lemmy.world is having problems posting to monero.town. I am getting a spinning busy icon when I click "post"

<m​onerobull:monero.social> hm

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Well, can someone post this answer for me to monero.town/post/4707359 ? gist.githubusercontent.com/Rucknium…0beb/multiple-blocks-probability.md

<m​onerobull:monero.social> ooooohhhh

<m​onerobull:monero.social> ruck i bet you are using tor right

<m​onerobull:monero.social> it could be that federation requests include reaching out to the server yourself

<m​onerobull:monero.social> so that might get blocked by the tor-ban on town

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Maybe. About two months ago I posted from lemmy.cafe and it showed up OK. Lemmy got an update since then, right?

<r​ucknium:monero.social> IMHO, get some funds to DigiLOL to set up an onion hidden service for monero.town with PoW anti-DDoS

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> yeah that might be a good idea

<r​ucknium:monero.social> I need to be able to tell Towners when something important is coming up on MRL's agenda

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Siren: Stnby can you please send me a quote for this :)

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Siren: Stnby can you please send me a quote for this? :)

<p​reland:monero.social> Anyone know anything abt the Japan thing?

<m​onerobull:monero.social> apparently they busted these people and found out they used monero while investigating afterwards

<m​onerobull:monero.social> so monero had nothing to do with the bust

<p​reland:monero.social> That’s what I was thinking, but it was odd that they were claiming to be the first time that Monero was analyzed and used to identify a suspect

<p​reland:monero.social> It’s not like this was the first time someone was busted that also happened to be using Monero; nor is it the largest amount

so kewbit was unfamiliar with licenses, but I think threatening to cancel his CCS because he was "withholding code" unrelated to his milestone is not a good look

maybe he was the one who made the threat first, but we shouldn't escalate or retaliate. he either open sources and gets his milestone paid or he doesn't. simple as that

also, <s​iren:kernal.eu> "Because an exception was made for a movie proposal before. Again on the licence rule." <= wasn't an exception, this was for a marketing campaign. there were other marketing campaigns before, i.e. a monero-branded spinnaker for a racing boat and a few others

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Artemisia was sick of this bullshit

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> and left the room

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> /s

hi

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> hi cat

does anyone else remember how Diego helped Vik open-source Cake, then proceeded to fork it and launch a competitor?

lmao that was a good one :)

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I didn't fork cake?

Stack isn't a fork?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> it isn't a fork of Cake, no.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> pov you're geonic and embarassing yourself

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> lmao that was a good one indeed :)

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> 'what do you want me to do?"

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> What do you want me to do?

what is it a fork of?

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> This is retarded.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I suspect the embarrassed part doesn't happen anymore. When you're consistently, confidently wrong it numbs you to the shame

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Hey geonic, have you ordered your mini statue of Diego yet?

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> You've been obsessed with him for years, might as well...

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Guy can't breath without this 'film director' garden gnome going after him. Ridiculous.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> The new big thing in the street is that supposedly Stack wallet is a fork of something. 🤣

if Stack wallet is written from scratch I'll do 100 push-ups in Diego's honor :p

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> squats bro, not push ups

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Shame, I was hoping you'd say you'd shut the fuck up for a month. Was getting excited. :(

just checked with my source, only a part of cake was forked but it's not being used anymore

I was not up to date on my info, apologies!

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Stack was originally forked from a, now very defunct wallet, called PayMint or something. Trying to remember the exact name and I'll find the repo.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> To this day, there isn't any paymint (or whatever it was called) code left in Stack

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> we just used it as a base so we didn't have to implement every single thing from scratch, but it ended up sucking so we replaced literally all of it

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> At present Stack is completely OG codebase

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> In the now, Cake uses code we make and we use code they make.

sounds like Monero and Firo, both fighting the good fight

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> anyways, maybe that's worth 50 push ups or so

leaning towards 0

but I mean, receiving licensing advice from the (only known) person who took Monero code without permission is kinda ironic

at least we're in agreement there, right?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> lol, need to get at least one poke in per day

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> first one flopped, swap to another

didn't flop bro, you did use cake code for a good while

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> it completely flopped because you said I forked cake to launch a competitor XD

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Bad faith in a nutshell

alright I'll do my 50 push-ups

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> And that's exactly how you meant it too, hence your apology (not to me, oh no, but to not being up to date on your info)

squats > pushups

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> You're a real piece of work, but Monero wouldn't be the same without your unique brand of vomit.

there was enough talk years ago that I still thought that stack was forked from cake

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Goodness knows how many times you've spread literal BS about me that I wasn't there to actually get right. Like my own personal Brandolini's Law.

narrative changed, we didn't get the memo

there's nothing I could say about you that would eclipse how big of a douche bag you actually are

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> two peas in a pod we are

diego at least now you have the finger on the pulse

the = your

kewbit got that one right. diego is a bad actor and a known grifter

and he likes to wear core's clothes

how long is this going to go on for?

I just finished catching up

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I've got another 5 minutes or

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> *or so

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Pencil in my 'geonic time' a couple times a week

please add it to your transparency report

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> keeps me humble

diego and humble in the same sentence is peak irony

<j​effro256:monero.social> geonic: plz take your personal woes about Deigo's supposed douchbaggery to another channel, it gets very noisy in this channel which is supposed to be about work

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> eclipsed only by geonic and intelligent

imma just glad I started my day with a heart warming cat video

may I suggest others do the same

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> My bad for continuing the vitriol. Though I think my response to the incorrect information obviously shot in bad faith at me was warranted.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> #monero-geonic-rotten-ofrn-diego-coliseum

jeffro256: I was talking about the way he handled the kewbit matter, which I thought was childish and unprofessional, and got distracted. apologies

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> 🤣🤣🤣

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> <g​eonic> there's nothing I could say about you that would eclipse how big of a douche bag you actually are <=== will you ever stop being such a cunt?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> mm? I thought we were done with this for now?

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> I'm not we.

Guys, please keep it civil and vaguely on topic thank you.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> nioCat where's the cat video!

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> are you able to comment on monero.town through the federation?

we went from "be excellent to each other" to "please keep it civil" haha

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> how did i end up in 3rd

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> and i'm pretty sure im banned form that room

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Apparently. lemmy.cafe/comment/8131464

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> On subject of licenses, why nobody ever look at the licenses for WIP ccs??

<geonic> we went from "be excellent to each other" to "please keep it civil" haha <-- Honestly I'm adjusting my moderation baseline to your attitude (and others) right now, I don't think it's funny. Anyway, can we get back 2014-15 mood and all just like each other again

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> There are numerous projects w/o proper FOSS licenses, with no license at all, other AGPLv3 projects that haven't _literally_ CHANGED milestones to get paid early AND abandon the project.

@diego you don't think there's a violation of agplv3?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> the violation was the release of the binaries. There was no other violation

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> In contrast, we have many ccs that are in violation of rule 4

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> In direct* violation

ofrnxmr the release of the binary proofed that the code is in existence. the fact we don't have the code, is the violation of agplv3.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Expecting source before milestone request is unreasonable entitlement

s/proofed/proved

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Kemo, yes

binaryFate: agreed and thank you for setting the correct tone for the rest of us

as a greedy community member, i'd like for all code to be made available as soon as possible.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> the internal building and testing of the binary is not in violation of anything. The only violation was releasing it to the public

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Expecting source before milestone request is unreasonable entitlement <= it's actually some nazi-level BS

and obviously for the appropriate milestone payments to be made

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I agree with geonics wording

<r​ucknium:monero.social> rottenwheel: Your comment doesn't appear in other instances: lemmy.world/post/21111879

release everything you've ever written that is in any way related to Monero or we will not pay you for this milestone

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> 🤷‍♂️ Lemmy moment.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> I'll try to report it to cafe's sysadmin.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Geonic, and get this: if you wait til milestone and release all at once, me might just REEEEE

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> As if its even enforceable to make someone submit WIP code pre-milestone. Its utterly ridiculous

<j​effro256:monero.social> geonic: that is not what was discussed. It wasn't "release everything you've ever written that is in any way related to Monero", but rather "release everything you've ever written that is in any way related to your current CCS proposal". You can still argue that to be unreasonable, but don't strawman, please.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> If you want to push a PR to monero-project, you must do 70 commits and tjen squash after youre finished working

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And must open all PR's in draft mode!!

this was hyperbole, not strawmanning

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Jeffro, the only reasonable request is for code that is related to the milestone, not the entire ccs

right. we agreed to the CCS, with milestones as described, when it was merged. as did the proposer

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> If i have milestone 4: the gui

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> why should i have to release the gui while the backend is still a WIPand the gui is just s template mess ?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Meanwhile, jeffro256, look at WIP ccs and their licenses. We have plenty that arent even foss!

"you're hiding unreleased code under the floorboards, aren't you".gif (this is a meme don't kill me)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Foss licenses exist for a reason, and MIT and agpl dont require working in public. MIT doesnt even require releasing in public afaik

<j​effro256:monero.social> I also lean towards this side of the argument, but I want to be accurate about what was discussed

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> If MIT, theres nothing stoppibg kewbit from creating a sock called "newbit" and releasing "haveno pro" as a proprietary app, claiming that he doesnt know who "newbit" is

ofrnxmr: create enough, the gui was actually the first milestone iirc

s/create/crazy

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> The milestones arent in order

<j​effro256:monero.social> Please point them out so we can discuss them on Saturday

not a coder, but in my field no one works in public. it's antithetical to creativity.

ofrnxmr agpl requires code be public for public binaries. the binaries are public. therefore code has to be

<j​effro256:monero.social> Eh. It's antithetical to exclusive monetization, not creativity

how do you mean

<j​effro256:monero.social> Lots of public works are creative even when not monetized

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Luigi told me to mind my business

for example? like a statue in a public garden or something?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> sorry jeffro.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I need to learn to have recency bias and do favors

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> also need to only apply rules when i feel like it

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I need me a spokesperson as well.

<j​effro256:monero.social> geonic: yes, or paintings, or TV broadcasting, or street art, etc, etc

right. none of those are made in public. maybe except graffiti or something

<j​effro256:monero.social> ofnrxmr: you can DM me if you'd prefer I bring them up. I'm fine being the scapegoat

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ill give an example: github.com/vtnerd/monero-lws/blob/master/LICENSE

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I believe this is intended to be MIT

the sculptor works in the studio, the painter, the TV crew... they release the work when they feel it's ready

or when the deadline comes :)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> github.com/mollyim/monero-wallet-sdk/blob/main/LICENSE this is supposedly copyleft and not permissive. Code hasnt been updateed in 5 months

<j​effro256:monero.social> That's the same BSD-3 license that Monero Project has

geonic: those are not collaborative arts. sw is.

TV and film are pretty collaborative

and even there no one asks the screenwriter to show what they’ve written that day

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> but it doesnt say bsd (unless i scanned too quickly)

<j​effro256:monero.social> Yeah this one isn't actually permissive and might be worth bringing up in regards to ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/vd-molly-payments-stage1.html

<j​effro256:monero.social> But that CCS doesn't even look active anyways

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Jeffro - are we actually against gpl?

<j​effro256:monero.social> It doesn't have to say "BSD" in the license terms for it to be BSD

<j​effro256:monero.social> opensource.org/license/BSD-3-clause

<j​effro256:monero.social> Nope I like GPL, but the CCS rules DO state "permissive" licensing

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Waller sdk has its own ccs as well

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Well then there is a longer list of gpl

copyleft is not permissive?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Mit and bsd etc dont require sharing source

<r​ucknium:monero.social> While we are discussing this, IMHO it would be good to get specific commitments about the license of future CCSes that produce non-code products like research papers and audits. Maybe agree to a specific Creative Commons license in the Ideas phase of CCSes.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> You can create proprietary derivatives. I think gpl is better for ccs than mit, since mit means that corps can just steal the work

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Which is a good reason _not_ to release code until payout

<j​effro256:monero.social> Agreed. We should add a license line to the header of the CCS proposals file so it gets committed to beforehand to avoid all this drama

<r​ucknium:monero.social> For example, it would be fantastic to have a permissive CC license that allows us to put the FCMP++ mathematical proofs in the appendix of a larger FCMP paper, with proper authorship attribution.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Agpl was committed to before haveno app was merged

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> It was not licensed originally

<r​ucknium:monero.social> And maybe some guidelines about releasing the LaTeX source of the documents so that tedious parsing of PDFs isn't necessary to extend, repackage, or modify the work.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> soloptxmr is agpl

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Yes, but maybe a _possible set_ of open source licenses since a project may realize that they really need a GPL library after working on the project for a while. If they commit to MIT, they couldn't use GPL library AFAIK.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I think the other way around. You can add gpl ontop of mit

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Mit allows you to even make proprietary derivatives

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Gpl does not

<r​ucknium:monero.social> I mean if they say in their CCS proposal that they will make the software MIT, then they cannot use a GPL library without making their software GPL

<j​effro256:monero.social> Yes, but I do think that that could have inadvertent effects to its funding, which is fine as long as the proposer recognizes that. A corporate interest might not fund the work if there is a possibility that the licensing switches from MIT to GPL

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Oh, right.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> which is good for foss lol.

<j​effro256:monero.social> On the other hand, a principled FOSS advocate might only fund a proposal if it uses a copyleft license

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Corps shouldnt fund our work so they can take it and make it proprietary

<j​effro256:monero.social> I have the opposite opinion, I think corps funding open source work is a good thing. I think it's a bad thing, but unfortunately much more common, when the open source code ISN'T paid for but used in a proprietary project

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> bitmain stole xmrig code

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> If it was MIT, fair game.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Its gpl though - so its a license violation

maybe they hired a consultant who stole it for them?

<j​effro256:monero.social> Well Bitmain has its HQ in Beijing so its sort of fair game regardless ;)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> i think corps should give credit where due. Not just use monero to build mobilecoin

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Even the linux kernal is gplv2

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Mobilecoin gplv3

preland: reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1g8pki…ities_arrested_a_gang_of_18/lt06xe6

<0​xfffc:monero.social> Nice name.

<0​xfffc:monero.social> IMHO monero should’ve started with GPL.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> imho monero have done good using MIT

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I like that people can do proprietary branch

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> ik ik very dictatorship bad thinking tier federal thought

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I think when you're an open project you don't mind proprietary versions. Some will argue the opposite and it's entirely ideological. No blame however.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I think ppl will (and do) fix our code and release it on their proprietary forks

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> building on our hard labor, and not repaying the gesture of sharing code

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> username checks out

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> On topic: i dont thing CCS should have to be MIT/bsd etc. If they do, we need to ask for refunds for solopt, wallet sdk and more

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> (/s)

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> more seriously you raise an important point for which I don't blame GPL. MIT software are more vulnerable to steal.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Steal WIP code from proposers and use on salvium

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> github.com/salvium/salvium/blob/main/LICENSE lol

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> At least its still mit?

<3​21bob321:monero.social> MIT requires you to reference original

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Copyleft stops you from making it closed sauce

<r​ucknium:monero.social> monerobull: Could you make a new post on monero.town?:

<r​ucknium:monero.social> > *On next MRL meeting agenda: Proposal for FCMP++ Hard Fork Activation Rule to Retroactively Ignore Future unlock_time*

<r​ucknium:monero.social> > At 17:00 UTC October 23 in the #monero-research-lab:monero.social Matrix channel and #monero-research-lab in Libera IRC. All are welcome.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> > monero-project/meta #1098

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Oh nevermind. jeffro posted on monero.town about it

<m​onerobull:monero.social> hello, thakns jeffro

<m​onerobull:monero.social> hello, thanks jeffro

hi

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> a lot of messages

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> but i cant understand something

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> whats the problem here? is it because kewbit didnt release the source code?

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> is that a big deal? he didnt get paid "yet" for his first milestone right? and he should release it if he wants to get paid

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> why are we fighting then?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I would consider all of this first:

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I think we should put this risk of proprietary idea derivatives to bed and stop making it so clear it’s a fear, though you’ve made it clear now this is your biggest “fear” essentially, sadly a well written chat GPT type mechanism could probably handle a complete evading the copyright anyway and anyone could do this. Unless you own a PATENT which is the strongest form of pr<clipped message>

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> otection, a trademark can help too in certain cases, but unless you own a charity like a US 5013(c) with a board it must include at least 5 people, I don’t think any one individual is entitled to register that half of Monero or its community.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> The next point on this is simply quite bluntly a “catch me if you can” type response. You think you’re just going to reveal the identity of the person infringing? You maybe be able to in some cases but some people know too much good luck reasoning with a god-like security research for example.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Additionally, you’d just be further limiting the scope of talent at your disposal for work. It’s one thing trusting people who do not reveal their identities for potentially very large transactions, it’s another thing to refuse to split it up into milestones. I think Luigi said something to Deigo “we’re a 2 billion market cap coin we can do what we want blah blah”. How<clipped message>

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> about “no you cant” if you want try to convince what some people might refer to as “idiots” to have their entire project paid at the end (I guess you want them to release the source code before hand too lol) then you need to completely remove the Jekyll front you a requiring that people put to define milestones, this is misleading (this is for sure a move backwards, I wou<clipped message>

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> ldn’t engage in any further work under term like this, others might in lower value sub 50xmr situations.)

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Another point to raise is double standards, basicswap (for example being a high value milestone) is meeting milestones and getting paid, are you ready to justify that to each person if they inquire about it that are rejected, especially after submitting work having it told them. You need to focus on keeping PR good too, I might only take 1 well written post at the top of Google so<clipped message>

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> soil the current administrations PR.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> TLDR; don’t add restrictions like this and make sure it’s DAMN clear if you choose to do it anyway.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I would consider all of this first:

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I think we should put this risk of proprietary idea derivatives to bed and stop making it so clear it’s a fear, though you’ve made it clear now this is your biggest “fear” essentially, sadly a well written chat GPT type mechanism could probably handle a complete evading the copyright anyway and anyone could do this. Unless you own a PATENT which is the strongest form of pr<clipped message>

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> otection, a trademark can help too in certain cases, but unless you own a charity like a US 5013(c) with a board it must include at least 5 people, I don’t think any one individual is entitled to register that half of Monero or its community.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> The next point on this is simply quite bluntly a “catch me if you can” type response. You think you’re just going to reveal the identity of the person infringing? You maybe be able to in some cases but some people know too much good luck reasoning with a god-like security research for example.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Additionally, you’d just be further limiting the scope of talent at your disposal for work. It’s one thing trusting people who do not reveal their identities for potentially very large transactions, it’s another thing to refuse to split it up into milestones. I think Luigi said something to Deigo “we’re a 2 billion market cap coin we can do what we want blah blah”. How<clipped message>

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> about “no you cant” if you want try to convince what some people might refer to as “idiots” to have their entire project paid at the end (I guess you want them to release the source code before hand too lol) then you need to completely remove the Jekyll front you a requiring that people put to define milestones, this is misleading (this is for sure a move backwards, I wou<clipped message>

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> ldn’t engage in any further work under term like this, others might in lower value sub 50xmr situations.)

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Another point to raise is double standards, basicswap (for example being a high value milestone) is meeting milestones and getting paid, are you ready to justify that to each person if they inquire about it that are rejected, especially after submitting work having not told them. You need to focus on keeping PR good too, I might only take 1 well written post at the top of Google s<clipped message>

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> o soil the current administrations PR.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> TLDR; don’t add restrictions like this and make sure it’s DAMN clear if you choose to do it anyway.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> One of the messages related to this

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Your project is agplv3 so the mit talk doesnt apply

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Okay and to cover this as a realist:

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> They choose to lie, in their interests, what do you do then? You’ve already found your self someone who is willing to engage in deception for profit, what you rather, they said they has code or didn’t? And who would you rather work with, deceptive or non-deceptive people?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> id rather they show the work that they are requesting pay for

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Talking about code that isn't public is simply marketing

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Don’t make rules, what you cannot enforce without dependency on the proposing parties honesty. It’s really non-seance to do this.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> You cant enforce a rule of "show source"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Its literally nonsense

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> And whoever proposed it probably just had the communities interests at heart but it need to be removed, because it’s an abused blanket rule too

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Imagine this: kewbit HAS no source for 3 weeks. then he works all night and delivers the whole thing overnight

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Do we railroad him for 3 week about WHERE IS THE COOOOODDDEEE? No.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Don’t worry about me for now, I’m a lost customer

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> As far as I’m concerned I’m just helping professional feedback

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I'm using you as an example

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> but can use any other project.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> You lost me as a contributor so far from most of this non-sense things.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> idk why you listen to ppl

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> your ccs was merged with agpl. Anyone complaining now can shutup

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> You've said this at least 10 times in the last 24 hours yet the vast bulk of activity in this channel is all you whining about the same thing over and over again, to different people, sometimes just different wording.

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Can you please move on?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Yeah you can but it seems like no you’ve just not regarded what I said about reality cases.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Your milestone was written specifically. Anyone complaining about it can shutup

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> This isn't Monero Community Whining Kewbit Safe Place.

next time Diego slides into your dm’s talking about licenses, just send him this monero-project/meta #583

end of conversation

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> there is no rule that can prevent your payout

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And diego's desogns for -site arent released under a permissive license either afaict

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> As of right now as far as I am concerned at least, there is no further release happening. There is a proposed discussion with Luigi. Depending on that goes, is the final factor.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> But im trying to keep the topic on resolving potential issues with the rules themselves and the ones being proposed to help try to make the system better, not worse.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Nobody cares what luigi, diego or anyone else says. You have a contract with your ccs terms. Youre not employed by core

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I mentioned in DM it went well.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> He holds the wallet, this is why I mean about the realist side of things.

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> in this situation he gets paid for his first milestone regardless of future ones

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> well, normally

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> He was supposed to step down from the wallet in march

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> He also lost 400k and didnt tell anyone

he didn’t lose it

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Well that is promising then hopefully we switch things back ground again

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Was hAcKeD

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> It's looking like it yeah

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> your imagination

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> well fk yall im tired of reading all that

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Not my imagination. It was a tentative date

<3​21bob321:monero.social> But he is fingering the pulse. Its his job to be everywhere.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> have a good night real_glitch

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> let me see if leo can summarize it

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> nop

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Luigi maintaining the new wallet was a temporary measure to get ccs back up and running

No way leo can summarize the edits from IRC side. They are a melt

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> your imagination. bro is going to hold that wallet and merge access to its death and no idealist will be able to do anything about it

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> As a realist I have to advocate that it’s more respectable to have said that with reason, than to have lied. The purpose of saying it in my context, was to move things along from an administration point of view, as I thought it would bring excitement. Obviously knowing now the biggest fear in CCS is how the copyrighted chooses to licence it, I do understand why that seemed concerning.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I don’t think I selected the right comment there but it was regarding telling people that you have source code that is not released.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> jic, i'm all for luigi to keep the wallet

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Multi sig

kewbit: you’re not going to change the system. you will need to release the code for whatever milestone you’re claiming. just do the work, don’t engage with grandstanders, and you’ll be fine

or not

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> +1 geonic

<3​21bob321:monero.social> This is like new website, goesnin circles

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> grandstanders = everyone that isnt your milestone

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Goes in*

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> You dont have an employer

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I’m not going to go over things again that I went through last night

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> kewbit for the love of god stop wasting your time go touch grass and continue coding like the god you are

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> You dont need to! Request you ms, sit back and wait

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> these people don't give a damn nail about your opinion

<3​21bob321:monero.social> I blame social media for allowing people to think they can constantly whinge the same thing over and over

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Right I’m off again if this nonsense is starting

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Anybody telling you to dance for dollars must have imagined your "stripper" milstone

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Say your piece and be done with it

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Sorry what non sense is this now?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> lmao principledFossAdvocate is literally thumbsing up its opponents

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> What do you think I’ve been doing? 😂

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Youre being asked to dance for $. I dont recall you having a milestone for that

<3​21bob321:monero.social> But you said it so many times its almost a meme

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Like “finger on the pulse”

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I wish I had the feminine characteristics that would get me free money like that.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Sadly I do not

strippers work hard for their money

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I've so many drama and jokes coming to my mind right now I swear I could do a binary tree

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Shaking there ass

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> So stop playing ball

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Oh sorry I’m not tidally up to date with memes anymore, I used to be

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Its a job thats need for leverage

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> You submit your milestone AS WRITTEN. Everything and everyone else and get fkd

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> 60 percent of the whole conversation is rottenwheel throwing random bullshits on kewbit and he is fighting back lol

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> i wish element had a mute or hide function for a specified user

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> it could be awesome if you could control the range like, shut rotten for today or yesterday

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> 60 percent of the whole conversation is rottenwheel throwing random bullshits on kewbit and he is fighting back lol

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> i wish element had a mute or hide function for a specific user

<r​eal_glitch:matrix.org> it could be awesome if you could control the range like, shut rotten for today or yesterday

<3​21bob321:monero.social> You can ignore people

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I’m not sure what value you’re adding here, I’m not asking for anyone’s explaining on the offer I rejected from the core team.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> for real you can mute specific people

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> look at me I muted myself

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Matrix does have a mute button (ignore user)

<3​21bob321:monero.social> I hear an echo again

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I’ve said the deal is off, that doesn’t mean I’m not happy to give feedback on the process.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I hear an echo again

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I wouldn't even listen to the offer. Terms are written in the ccs. There is no further offer

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> But you’re also just echoing crap 😂

<3​21bob321:monero.social> New ben 10 character

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Exactly

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Not being done with it for the past 24 hrs. and still here? 🤔

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Problem solved, which is my point from last night.

<3​21bob321:monero.social> I like how random people join and then they agree with people

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> This was basically all resolved last night. Nothing new is being discussed here today.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> There is a reason I’m still here and that’s non of your concern

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Mods can mute aswell :)

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I brought my proposed solution from last night to luigi and plowsof and it was well-received.

the solution to the problem you created lol

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Community know about this side deal?

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> It looks like the current milestone/proposal will go through on the current basis, and there will be a suggested word change that can be discussed at some community meetings about the merits of adding it

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Rotten again, your feed back tends to be quite useless this is an ongoing concern 😂

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> I don't know how many times I have to tell you geonic, I was asked to look into this matter by the CCS maintainers

<3​21bob321:monero.social> This is gas lighting now

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> go yell at them please about the problem THEY created (if you're so adamant that its fraudulent)

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I actually encourage that too

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Proceed with the original terms of the contract? Sounds like an obvious solution

they chose the licensing expert to intervene! geniuses all around :)

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> all this to be said, as far as kewbit's proposal is concerned, it's been sorted.

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Both sides have said there piece and we will wait on the monero court to give there judgement

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Deviate from original terms? Sounds like a joke

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> glad to hear you come to your senses and acknowledge the truth of the matter

no such court, terms are in the ccs as already stated

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Its pretty clear

<3​21bob321:monero.social> All work is permissive even when wip

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> anyone wanna play chess lichess.org/sNnfoc8n ? (This is a malware link obviously)

I want malware

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Hmm random link

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Ima click it

yuck it’s an actual chess link

(:

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> If you have 6 hours of free time, go ahead and read the last 18 hours of messages in full. If you really want to be on the same page for those who are no on the same page.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Permissive doesnt mean public

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Oh we’re not around

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Or we’re not around

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> who is on my game?

I’m watching but not playing. This better be good

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> New rule: you can't use a local git repo!!!! /s

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Dan (Is not the man & Braxman Tomsparks Advocate) Backup: are you a fucking ot?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Must commit directly to github!! NO FORCE PUSHES ALLOWED

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> MUST KEEP HISTORY OF ALL WORKING BRANCHES

must install a keylogger!

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And a screen recorder!

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And a webcam!!!

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> kewbit: if you haven't sent a message to plowsof or luigi with payout instructions, please do so soon.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> and if you have, I suspect payout won't take much longer.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> it should be on the comment on gitlab

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I have already provided that on the thread with my signed information

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> perfect. Then the payout won't be much longer.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I can link

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Great

\o/

I have never put anyone on ignore but I have scrolled past people

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I look forward to publishing some legal UI based binaries now

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Install activex please

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Finally do some proper testing

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Me????

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> idk who I just played with but it was cool thx

That was quick

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> the license of the app kewbit is developing (github.com/KewbitXMR/haveno-app) was inherited from the CCS funded Haveno github.com/haveno-dex/haveno

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Haveno wasnt ccs funded

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Poor kayabanerve has been writing for more than 10 minutes...

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Haveno ui was, and is apache 2.0 github.com/haveno-dex/haveno-ui/blob/master/LICENSE

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> true. Haveno existing along side the CCS funded UI from the beginning as AGPL was never an issue

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> It was it was just really long time ago no one picked it up recently so it was recommissioned

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/haveno-frontend.html

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> i repeat: Haveno was NOT ccs funded

I was only making a joke about the licence.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Soloptxmr is AGPLv3 and solopt even CHANGED their milestones

But good fingering, people

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Woodser did bring up the use of Apache 2 for the app code, but I said I think there is no choice on it being AGPLv3 so that’s what it’s currently set to in the official Haveno-dex github

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Haveno was a financial investment, shopped and eventually sold to VC investors. To quit erc "You funded the UI, not the backend"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> s/quit/quote

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Please let us know now, if that’s not the case because I’m pushing code with that ever licence it set to maybe as soon as tonight once I get enough first milestone confirmations

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Please let us know now, if that’s not the case because I’m pushing code with that licence it set to maybe as soon as tonight once I get enough first milestone confirmations

<3​21bob321:monero.social> One key at a time

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> i think you might need to use agplv3 if you use any of the dex code

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Woodser is doesn’t take money for the backend

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Woodser doesn’t take money for the backend

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Lol

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Only went to mainnet now

woodser is a legend

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> That’s not my business do discuss though

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Yes, all of those donations never happened /s

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> He is a noble for sure

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Erciccione was the only one ever paid /s

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I respect him a lot

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Plowsof we have a licence lawyer here somewhere docs used

took an abandoned ship and made it seaworthy

<3​21bob321:monero.social> {{}}

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> it was always his ship

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Erc20’s arc

was erc just grandstanding the whole time

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Erciccione was just the frontman, raising $ for it

<s​nowman:tetaneutral.net> there was a boating accident?

ah, the ofrn to haveno’s basicswap :p

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Erc had a 50% stake in haveno iirc.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Vik bought him out

don’t we all wish Vik could buy us out

all that time and effort…

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Geonic ^

<3​21bob321:monero.social> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…ero.social/qfUqXqTlBxJJDbLGhHoPfAAb

haha nice movie set

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> erc "frontend in 4-6 months" >> 2 yrs later, backend still unfinished

needed a bigger volatility buffer I guess

1000%?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> not enough

100000%

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Too many 0s. Mayne 123456%

yeah gotta make it look like there’s logic behind it

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> were hiring 3-5 unnamed frontend devs from a 10 star operation

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Their price is 15k/mth

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ignore that tho. I promise, we'll pay monero developers by running a competitor to ccs called the "engine"

Are we talking about haveno or basicswap?

It's really not clear

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> haveno

Thanks for clearing that up

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Basicswap has no buffer, or unnamed devs, or some random company doing the work

It was a joke

A joke

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And not 15k/mth/dev

was the random company ErC LLC?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> `Viabl`

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> "After a scrupulous research, we decided to work with Viabl, a skilled team with decades of frontend development in their portfolio."

I wish CCSs that pay third parties would submit invoices like I did

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Theyve been doing frontend dev since windows 95 guys

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> "For this rate we will get 2 experienced frontend developers and a lead dev dedicated to Haveno." original changed to (new ccs) "This is the estimated cost to complete the frontend. We are already in contact with a team of three devs, which will start working on Haveno as soon as this CCS is accepted."

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> if i could summarise my end: there was a potential rule break (which had some feedback in #haveno, outside of monerologs' reach, one problem). the path forward of ' payout request is unrelated to the potential rule break , payout request is open source ' needed a second opinion and clarification. i couldn't hand on heart tell luigi, these are the facts, this is the decision the co<clipped message>

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> mmunity is happy with. the path forward could not be delayed, for the sake of kewbit and his ongoing project. Diego has successfully fingered the pulse quickly and remained pretty much intact. now, i hope we can go back to ignoring 3+ year old ccs' and be happy again

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Diego Salazar: The CCS doesn't allow copyleft licenses? Hm. I'd argue it should if declared and justified ahead of time. There was even discussion on if RandomX should've been GPL so bitmain would've had to yield their RISC-V JIT impl to the community. I support the proposed solution to add a license field to each CCS and handle it case-by-case, solely requiring FOSS.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Also, NACK to requiring regular uploads. Work must be uploaded before claiming, obviously, and most always be uploaded permissively if uploaded, but we shouldn't require regular git syncing IMO.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Also, Siren, AFAIK, code linking GPLv3 can be MIT itself in its unlinked form. It's the joint product which must be distributed under the more restrictive GPLv3.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> SyntheticBird: Monero is BSD, not MIT.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I think that’s the jist of it

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> I was writing my reply as I read today's log. Apologies it sent without the line spacing I intended.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Tor do this thing where you add —enable-gpl flag to for anyone to build it with PoW

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> tor ships with gpl bin's (pow enabled by default) on non-proprietary OS

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Otherwise it’s not included, we might have to focus on giving people solid build from source instructions if licences conflicts are too cumbersome to resolve

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> it is included on just about every modern linux distro

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Tested fedora, ubuntu, alpine etc etc

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Ahh, I only noticed this when self building, can we distribute on GPL or no?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Arch

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Yes I noticed PoW is in fact available there too

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Can't ship on mac or windows

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> i think gplv2 is compatible with agpl.. but dont quote me

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> For my own clarity are there any considerations that needs to be made if I include forks of packages I’m using for the app, there are a lot of MIT, BSD and AGPL mostly they are MIT I think

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> tesla can disable fast charging remotely, they need to open source their software so people can disable that before their next CCS IMO

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Its equi-x is gpl3

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> You can add mit to whatever you want, even proprietary works. IANAL

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> That’s not ideal we need to ship it everywhere, if you’re on Mac or Linux the installer won’t just download binaries it will actually check if it can build from source first based on the arch, does that solve the issue ?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> It doesn’t do that recursively yet but I will need to do that for fdroid anyway

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I think the user would have to opt in, or youd have to separate it from the app

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> for windows/mac

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Can I present the licence in the installer for them to accept

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Or is it something WE need to comply to that doesn’t involve the user?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> gpl3 is a lot more extreme than gpl2

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> i dont think so, otherwise tor would ship it

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> From a technical standpoint we can:

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> - present licence to user for acceptance and have them build from source

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> - present licence and download binaries (preferred for less maintenance it’s what have I Java edition does with monero-wallet-RPC) for example

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Its possible though that if its being built from source on the host pc, that its ok

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> But should look into what exactly the restrictions are before moving forward with it

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> One day I'll build my own CCS platform and yall be jealous

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> If unsure, ship w/o pow u til sure

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Yes that can be arranged but that wasn’t what I had planned for desktop or iPhone

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Until* sure

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I used it as an example to drive ideas but there is no need for PoW between the app and the daemon, there isn’t really even a need for Tor so I2P was considered for a bit.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> You’d be foolish to expose your app link code so it would never be public facing therefore not needed in the build

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> FWIW, Serai services are AGPL and Serai libs are MIT. That makes its libs public good, it able to be integrated into non-GPL work, yet forks compelled into transparency.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLStaticVsDynamic

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Linking is irrelevant and there are no exceptions for dynamic linking in the case of GPL. So no, those cannot be MIT.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#LGPLStaticVsDynamic

<s​iren:kernal.eu> However, LGPL makes the exception that you have described.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Diego Salazar: the link that you posted about FOSS licensing is SEO slop written by AI that is straight up misinformation.

<d​iego:cypherstack.com> Ah sorry. I indeed searched "difference between copyleft and permissive" and grabbed one of the top results. I was a fool.

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Yeah the state of the internet and search engines...

<s​iren:kernal.eu> geonic: it's not about the kind of campaign. It's about the creative work produced. You produced non-free/non-open media which conflicts with the same CCS policy. It would have been appropriate if the movie was released under a CC license. You can find the definition of "open" here:

<s​iren:kernal.eu> opendefinition.org/od/2.1/en